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Randle Cycle – avoid grey areas

BrianTheElder

Well-Known Member
Messages
574
Location
Surrey, UK
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Dislikes
Snide people
Hi

As an introduction, the Randle Cycle describes how the body switches between glycolysis (glucose burning) and lipolysis (fat burning). It is biochemistry, so if anyone is keen to find out more, just look it up on the internet. The main point is that there is an actual change and the body will only be in one state or the other. The change point is when the body finds there are insufficient carbs around to supply the organs and muscles adequately. We call the ensuing state ketosis because the body burns ketones from fat rather than glucose from carbs and proteins.

After about 7 months of a ketogenic diet, my numbers have all pretty well levelled out. So I take notice when something unusual happens. On several occasions, I have seen my weight increase, my bs increase and my ketones go down. I have attributed all these to coming out of ketosis, either inadvertently or from an indulgent lapse.

Thinking about this, I wondered what was happening while I was out of ketosis and still eating my ketogenic diet. The first thing is that I would not have enough energy, because there wouldn’t be enough carbs and protein around. Secondly, there would be excessive fat, so the insulin produced in reaction to the carbs would put the fat into storage (weight increase). Thirdly, the liver would process the protein to produce more glucose, causing an increase in my low bs levels. resulting in more insulin in a feedback loop. I’m not sure if that makes sense, but I decided that if I dropped out of ketosis in future, I should go on a short fast to re-establish my balance.

But then I thought of those diabetics that select a moderate carb higher fat diet. They will not go into ketosis because they eat enough carbs to stay in glycolysis. The excess fat will therefore be put into storage because there is insulin present. Also, they may not be able to produce enough glucose from the moderate carbs to satisfy their energy needs. That makes me think that the grey area between a ketogenic diet and a moderate LCHF should be avoided if you intend to lose weight and keep up your energy levels.
 
It makes sense to me. It's early days for me still tho thinking LCHF is the way forward but battling with advice from HCP's and seeing recent successes with lowering glucose levels and cholesterol levels. I'm new to Metformin treatment and don't need to lose or gain weight.
 
I pop in and out of ketosis regularly eating 50 g carbs a day (mostly because I include a variety of vegetables with all meals). So long as I'm not gaining weight, not concerned. That said, if I'm out of ketosis long enough I'll gain some weight in water, but that comes right off once I go back into ketosis. When I gain fat, then I become very disciplined with my carb intake to re-lose it.

What I'm interested in learning this year is what happens to glucose levels if I increase the diversity and health of my microbiome.

One question I have is... If protein intake at each meal is not excessive, why would the body convert some of it to glucose?
 
So, how long do these "lapses" need to last? By that I mean a lapse that takes us out of ketosis.

And what happens if you slip between one and the other, regularly, some days fat burning, other days glucose burning? Is that even possible on a daily basis, or does it take longer for the body to change over?

I'm sure I change between the two, although I have no evidence as I don't check for ketones. I also haven't put on any weight for 2 years, nor lost any more, and my BS are generally stable but not perfect.
 
If you're not in ketosis, then your body is burning glucose. To supplement the limited supply from carbs, the liver will convert protein to glucose via gluconeogenesis. Protein will thus be diverted from build and repair for the time being.
 
@BrianTheElder I eat 50 g carbs a day and have never had a glucose level below 85 mg/dl (4.7 mmol/l). Why would my body think I don't have enough glucose and begin converting protein to glucose?
 
@BrianTheElder I eat 50 g carbs a day and have never had a glucose level below 85 mg/dl (4.7 mmol/l). Why would my body think I don't have enough glucose and begin converting protein to glucose?
I don't know if 50g carbs/day are enough for your energy requirements, as that depends on your metabolism. If it is not enough your liver will supply more from protein as described, plus you will use a small amount of stored glucose. If that is still not enough, your body will slow down your metabolism - that is the grey area I am talking about.
 
(this post isn't aimed at you @BrianTheElder , this this thread is a perfect place to make the comment - if you see what I mean )

People can be fat adapted (able to flip comfortably between glucose burning and fat burning). We don't have to be in ketosis all the time to see the benefits that are claimed.

I would be very wary of making statements on ketosis that are intended to apply to people generally - because not everyone wants or needs to be in ketosis, and not everyone likes the experience or considers it to be a good thing.

Some people happily lose weight on 130g of carbs a day, and others need to virtually eliminate carb intake to do so. Plus, of course, being in ketosis is no guarantee of weight loss. Lots of us on here can attest to that. It just depends on our individual bodies.

Unfortunately, there are as many Keto Myths as there are Low Cal myths, and they seem to self propagate all over the internet. If there is anything worse than a Born Again Dieter, it is a Born Again Keto Dieter!

If ever I catch myself getting too Fundamentalist, I just have a re-read of this brilliant blog. Sets me straight, every time.
http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2017/02/fat-loss-new-perspective.html
 
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Hi @Brunneria
I understand your general remarks. From my point of view I am interested in the science, not in getting others to follow a particular path.
As to my thread, I am pointing out that running on low carbs and not being in ketosis is unlikely to be a good thing - where is the energy coming from? Where is the fat going? Just a question of degree.
 
Thank you for the links. I don't think the author understands the Randle Cycle.
 
As to my thread, I am pointing out that running on low carbs and not being in ketosis is unlikely to be a good thing - where is the energy coming from? Where is the fat going? Just a question of degree.

I first started at 120g carbs, reduced to about 90g then 60g. all with increased fats. All this over a period of 10 months or so. In that time I lost 33% of my body weight. My energy came from carbs. My body fat disappeared. I had no issues with carb flu or lack of anything. My problem was just my BS needed reducing and my weight needed stabilising before I disappeared down a grid, so I dropped my carbs to 30g. most but not all days, and increased my fats from mainly protein sources (cheese and eggs mainly plus cream) My weight stabilised and my BS reduced and I became fat adapted. I have no idea if I am in ketosis as I don't check, but I imagine most days I am, but not every day. Since stabilising my weight thankfully I haven't gained or lost (well over 2 years now) other than the normal daily fluctuations of a pound or so. Does that fit with the science? I have no idea.
 
If ever I catch myself getting too Fundamentalist, I just have a re-read of this brilliant blog. Sets me straight, every time.
http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2017/02/fat-loss-new-perspective.html

A good read and definitely helps to put weight loss in perspective.

I try not to get on the scales too often - since going low carb about 2/52 ago I have noticed that I can get past the car in the garage without having to fold the wing mirror in - that tells me a lot!
 

Thanks BrianTheElder.

Still struggling with the idea that there is minimal benefit from the low carb diet as compared to the ketogenic diet. One of the concerns I have about 20 g carb or less ketogenic diets is the lack of plant fiber to maintain a diverse microbiome. If Volek and Phinney speak to this, I'd appreciate hearing a recap of their view on this.
 
I am not saying that there is no benefit from the LCHF diet, quite the reverse. There are many people on here who will attest to the LCHF diet working at your carb levels, it is all down to your individual metabolism. The point of what I wrote is that there is an on/off switch between being ketogenic or in a lower state of glucose burning; it is not a simple matter of a slow merging of one into the other, or of them working at the same time. So if you choose a low carb diet, you should ensure you are getting enough energy from the carbs and protein for your needs. Carbs and protein both deliver 4kcals of energy per gram, so that is easy to calculate from what you eat. However, in that case you won't be using the fat as fuel so you may feel it reasonable not to eat large amounts of fat.
I am following the ketogenic diet because I am old and need to lose weight. I would not advise it for anyone else because it depends on individual life styles and body metabolisms.
 
If you're not in ketosis, then your body is burning glucose. To supplement the limited supply from carbs, the liver will convert protein to glucose via gluconeogenesis. Protein will thus be diverted from build and repair for the time being.

I'm not sure that my experience supports that view...
I have been on my zero carb month so only eating animal produce but have noticed that I am only in nutritional ketosis (ketones more than 0.5 mmol/l) about 50% of the time. My blood sugars however have been low (between 4.7 and 5.5 most of the time) and stable so I don't seem to have elevated glucose levels from gluconeogenesis. Now I haven't lost any weight either but haven't put any on. I have just this past week been really analysing what I have been eating and have varied from about 2200 calories to 3700 calories a day with carbs always under 20g( in fact 17g was the highest). So I have no idea what is going on.
 
I have noticed that it is protein that causes my problems rather than carbs. If I eat more than about 70g of carbs/day then my ketone levels drop, followed by weight gain and small bg increase. I am really exploring the theory and trying to understand what is happening to me. But the Randle Cycle seems unavoidable; either you are burning fat or you are burning glucose, but not both at the same time. In your case, if you have little carbs to burn and you are not in ketosis, you must be converting protein or extracting glucose from other sources in your body. I, too, have no idea what is going on, but I hope to find out.
 
If you find out let me know pleeeaaasse... hehe... back to fasting.. makes it so much easier...
 
Hi. I have just looked up what Dr Jason Fung has to say on the Randle Cycle. You can find it here.
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/dietary-fat-hyperinsulinemia/
It is interesting that he says to avoid medium to high levels of protein on a LCHF diet, which is what I have found in my own diet.
I am going to settle for this as an explanation for now.
 
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