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Speciesism, Veganism Type 1 Diabetes

Maybe that's why I found the lower carb I am the better I can control with protein. As you said, the timing of protein is much later when carbs are on the plate but gluconeogenisis proceeds much more rapidly in the absence of carbs.. If I eat more carbs than some simple lettuce celery and radish I lose steady control. I don't digest carbs well so veg/ vegan is not an option but I also don't eat a ton of protein. As far as fat is concerned, I have reduced dietary fat to reduce body fat and had to reduce insulin in half so it definately plays a roll. However I also think the type of fat makes a big difference. Olive oil doesn't effect anything, saturated fat has the biggest effect. Mayo is good and nuts and seeds are good but avocado is the best. It keeps me very stead. No ups or downs. Yesterday I had my normal salmon wrap with no side of guac and I popped up. With guac I stay exactly the same or even drop a bit. I can't be sure of plant protein has the same effect as I have never done a detailed experiment but info know nuts and seeds will not spike me like animal protein. I don't eat beans anymore because they did spike me but if I were blousing for the carbs in the beans I would think ( again not sure) that would also cover the protein. Now add the rice to the beans to make a complete protein and I would run really fast haha.
This has kind of shown me even more why if I want to eat protein it is too difficult to eat carbs and get insulin timing right. Now keep in mind I am OCD about insulin and my BS. I am very sensative to insulin and feel any movement in my bs so when I say steady, I mean I like to stay between 80 and 90. I can still feel that sometimes. This is why I eat the exact same macros at meals every day. Stop the fluctuations.

I find this whole thread interesting and confirms so many things for me
I wish you well on your journey and I too will be following it. I am curious as to how it plays out. If I could digest all the wonderful vegan/ veg foods I would gladly go there but it's not gonna happen for me.

Please keep us posted
 

Thank you very much for your reply, your encouragement and the interest you show regarding this experiment of mine!
Have a beautiful day!

Regards
Josephine
 
Veganism / Vegetarianism is right up there on the list of things people just should not discuss casually - Politics, Religion, Money and Meat it seems lol

Most animals are herbivores or omnivores but that is just how the system works - you have to have more prey then predators, if it was the other way around numbers would plummet..

Also, domesticated dogs and cats are not a pure carnivores, they can live on a diet of meat and non-meat - as we see when we look at the 'filler' used in their foods and table scraps they eat, treats, etc...

In short - the argument that humans are 'supposed to eat meat' is still heavily contested. If you compare our teeth and jaws to herbivores we have more in common them with carnivores - many flat, short teeth for grinding, and the fact that we must COOK our meat before ingesting makes a clear case that we are not carnivores by design but by preference. If you look at the history of mankind and how long we have been cooking and eating meat and that it does serve a beneficial purpose to our health (and taste to some) it's clear that we are just run of the mill Omnivores we adapt to eat whatever is available.

So no contest here - any human is free to eat meat, or not eat meat at their will, as they please, and just like any other diet as long as it is balanced they will lead a health life.

I have known many people, and there are many people all over the world who NEVER eat meat, they spend their whole lives never eating any meat and are healthy and happy - its as normal to them as eating meat is to you.

I think the problem with discussions like this lay more in the psychology of the material - people feel defensive when someone chooses to exclude from their lives something that they love so much. You saying "I will never do that again" can make some people upset because they do it all they time. This can lead them to feel personally offended by your choice, and in some cases as if you declare it 'not good enough' - which is not the case. You will run into people who unconsciously think this way, its not their fault but a natural reaction to something that is statistically unusual, so its best to keep the talk of these 'crazy' things on the hush lol

You will find its actually worse when you AREN'T giving up meat for religious/ethical reasons because most people i have told - that i gave up meat because I didn't like the taste - freak out and try and convert ME to eating meat, all while complaining about vegans and how they are so annoying trying to convert people lol

The best thing to do is exclude labels. Do not call yourself a vegan or a vegetarian, don't try to 'follow the rules' of these practices - just find what works for you and do it. If you are out to dinner you don't have to announce your vegetarian, just don't order a meat dish, or politely turn it down.

Yeah - That's the short post lol
 
Diamattic said:
the fact that we must COOK our meat before ingesting
Click to expand...
That's not strictly true and has never been. Many of us regularly eat raw meat (Sushimi, beef carpaccio, etc) happily. It's not required, but we have developed a taste for cooked meat and discovered that we can keep it for longer without getting ill if we go cooked!
 

Diamatic. Your on my list of cool posters..
..& I agree acknowledge most of what you say. Lol But, domestic cats & dogs are just bred to look the way they look.. Dogs have certain "working" characteristics? But the "fundamental" of em hasn't changed since pre history.. The ability for them to process carb has not evolved fast enough.. They haven't realy been bred to man's tailored needs for that long in the "grand scale of things"..
In the same way humans no longer look at the stars & make up stories... We watch TV & point "spectrometer" thingies to the skies.. But we still have the basic age old need for a horror flick or a jolly good Greek mythology inspired Sci Fi..

Having said all that.. I sincerely do respect vegans.. More meat for me & my dog. The rest is "too orangey for crows."
 
Cats are obligate carnivores. Exactly why they shouldn't be eating the **** that comes in "biscuits" etc.

Trying to convert them to another kind of diet I guess is another kind of "speciesism".
 
Good morning everyone! I hope you are all having a great day!
I love this thread! Thank you all so much for making it so interesting!

In relation to some of the foods mentioned above, like raw meat (carpaccio) or oysters, I am thinking that, when we are young, we have very a “childish” palate. The only thing we like is what tastes sweet.
It is only over the years that our palate refines and we learn to appreciate salt, sour and savory tastes. We learn (or become educated?) to love coffee, or spices like turmeric, Campari and gin, green tea, grapefruit…. (Brussels sprouts??).
It is only when we grow older that we move from milk chocolate to 99 per cent cocoa solids.

In addition to that, there are certain foods, like snails which they eat in France as a delicacy, or frog legs in Italy (grasshoppers in India…) which people, initially, saw as a solution during historically difficult years like wars or famines.
My guess would be that a Frenchman during WWII would prefer a juicy steak over a plate of boiled snails.(But, then again, with the French you never know...)

Having this in mind, my guess is that the foods or the tastes mentioned above are choices on the basis that food is an experience. I am not sure however if they are choices on the basis of a natural selection.

If I am interpreting Diamattic correctly (and I am not suggesting that he needs interpretation) being a carnivore is a matter of instinct and not a matter of taste. Having a nice, juicy fillet in a restaurant presented with all the haute cuisine shebang is completely different from going in an English park, chase and catch a squirrel, bite his neck to kill it and then eat the whole thing (eyes, brain, tongue, genitals.) So, unless I see one of us doing it, I will, still, have my doubts if we are “naturally” carnivorous by instinct.

My theory would be that if we give to a toddler a white, fluffy bunny and a pear, the chances are that the toddler will eat the pear and play with the bunny (and not vice versa).

I am not suggesting that “meat eaters” are bad people or that they are doing something wrong. I am only wondering if meat eating is a habit (that could potentially change if someone wished to change it) rather than an instinctive choice.

Having said that, I must admit that I very much appreciate the ones who reply with honesty ‘Fifi darling, I understand all these nice things you are telling us but, I don’t want to change, I like my juicy steak, I am guilt free about it and I am too lazy to change.” I love honesty! I think it is great!

But, if someone tells to a vegeratian/vegan “Oh, God doesn’t approve veganism because it is not in the Bible” or “I am not wasting food because babies are hungry in the world” or whatever excuse of this kind then, there will always be someone with a counter-reply and, hopefully, this interesting thread could go on for years…

Keep posting your interesting thoughts please.
Have a great day! May your sugar levels be on fleek!!

Regards
Josephine.
 
I have just come across your message after searching out this particular subject as I have just started trialling vegetarianism/veganism for Lent and been very surprised at the positive impact on my BGs particularly post-meal. I have been suffering with post meal spikes and been unable to make much discernible difference to them in spite of various efforts to minimise them. I did not expect that removing animal protein and fat would do the job! So now I'm searching out the subject and stumbled across your messages which seem to accord with my experience so far. For the record I am a Type 1 and have been for the past 27 years and pumping for the last 7. I use the Abbott Freestyle Libre sensors which has helped me to pinpoint where my 'issues' lie and highlighted the spikes for action.
 

Thank you for your input.

I have not managed to convert to a full vegan yet. But, I really want to.
However, the last 12 months, I don’t have any dairy products and I only have meat or fish once a day with lunch. The meat/fish weight is 60 grams (which is 1 gram per 1 kilo body weight - I am 1.78cm and weight 60 kilos). I have noticed that if I eat more, (and by more meat /fish, I am referring to the normal restaurant portion of around 100-120 grams) my blood sugar will rise around 3-4 hours after meal, usually by 3 -4.5 mmols. I practice carbohydrate counting with every meal so, I feel confident that the rise is because of animal protein.

I have also found that raw foods give me a much better result than cooked ones, for example raw vegetables (instead of boiled, steamed or roasted). Additionally, I believe that animal fat (like butter) interferes with my insulin and hinders its performance. Vegetable fat (like extra virgin olive oil) does this too but to a lesser extent. I find that coconut oil is difficult to handle, I suspect because it may have a very low glycemic load and delays the digestion of food therefore, my novorapid’s spike happens earlier than my food’s spike and my bg rises around 3-4 hours post meal.

As a type 1 diabetic, I have been through all types of diets in my effort to figure out what works better.
While I was transitioning to a type 1, during my prolonged honeymoon period, I went from 500mts metformin, to 1000mg metformin to metformin combined with tresiba, to a basal bolus scheme of tresiba and novorapid and now to a basal/bolus of levemir and novorapid. I also tried paleo diets, diets suggested by my nutritionist, low carb/high fat, low fat/high carb etc (I tested almost every diet I could find). Particularly, the paleo one worked well during my honeymoon period; at the time, I would swear by it. However, it does not work well for me since I became, officially, a type 1 diabetic.

On January 2016 (last year) I was on 23 units of Levemir. As I started exploring raw vegan options for meals, my insulin needs changed. I am currently at 14 units of Levemir. My Novorapid ratios also changed from 1.5:1 or 1:1 to 1:1 and 1:1-1.

Additionally, exercise seems to have a different effect now… My bg drops quite easily when I exercise now (which means that I need to be more careful.)

I know that each person is different and I also understand that there may be people reluctant to experiment with a fully raw, vegan approach. I seem to find better results in raw vegan meals and I am wondering if, in fact, a fully raw vegan diet (or a diet which contains very little animal protein) is the nutritional choice for type 1 diabetes which produces the best results in the handling of bg.

Regards
Josephine
 
Hi @Bluemarine Josephine Glad to read you are keeping well. It is almost a year since you started this thread. Have your views on speciesism changed at all in this time?
 
I find the same thing. Though I am very low carb ( less than 20 per day) I know animal / fish protein raises me. I feel I do need it though as well as enjoy it so I too use the .8g per kg and need about 44g per day. I split my animal/ fish over 3 meals. It really spikes me at bf so I have avocado and an ounce of smoked salmon or turkey. Can't even eat an egg without spiking at bf. Lunch I eat 1.5 oz and dinner 2-2.5. If I eat more than 3 oz I need a split bolus. My insulin covers protein better as the day moves forward.
I as well find raw veggies work better than steamed but I don't digest them very well. Weird thing is lettuce really spikes me. Must digest too fast.
Also found avocado keeps things low and slow for me. I eat some with every meal. Then my protein and a few veg of some sort. Meal SIZE makes a huge difference with me as well. All these nuances!!!

The ticket for me is to eat small amounts throughout the day and not to over eat it. It would be much too hard for me to get my complete proteins and be vlc.
 
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Hello Kristin! I am always so happy to read your input! I hope that you are very well!

Oh my God, where do I begin with protein in breakfast! I don’t even dare to touch protein with breakfast as it almost cancels out my novorapid! If I have breakfast and include protein (and I am not referring to massive amounts…neither to milk/yogurt -which is a combination of fat and protein and make things even more difficult- it could be just a slice of ham or turkey) and I inject my normal ratio, I will find myself at 14 mmols 2 hours after breakfast and, most probably, I will stay at a similar level until lunchtime!

The problem that I have with avocado (and I do like avocado on toast for breakfast) is that although it gives me a nice and mild rise 2 hours after a meal, the rise keeps going after 3 or even 4 hours so, even though I do not get a high postprandial spike, my bg keeps rising even after my novorapid has done its work. I suppose that the fat content in avocado delays digestion but, in the way that very low glycemic load foods do (like rye bread for example) and the solution is on bolus surfing (and in all honesty, I am already injecting 5 times a day, or more in case I need to correct my bg so, adding 2-3 more injections so as to eat an avocado or a slice of rye bread feels too much effort for me). I can see the benefit of it only if I decided to eat and then exercise 2-3 hours after breakfast, I would feel safe.

Weirdly enough, and despite the DAFNE principles, lettuce spikes me as well!

I hope you are enjoying a lovely weekend.

Regards
Josephine
 
Avocado Sevenfold said:
Hi @Bluemarine Josephine Glad to read you are keeping well. It is almost a year since you started this thread. Have your views on speciesism changed at all in this time?
Click to expand...

Hello Avocado Sevenfold and thank you for your message!

All this nutritional experiment started for me when I came across some very informative videos on nutrition. One video led to another and then documentaries like "Earthlings”, “Forks and Knives” etc. I came to realize that I love animals too much to continue to participate in such cruel practices (and, even though others get paid to do them for me, I still feel that I am a part of the cruelty process through financing it).

My view on things changed and I really wanted to change my lifestyle. I started to feel the cruelty and I couldn’t ignore it. My journey and attempt to veganism started because of this, I really wanted to try. As I was making my effort I realized that this change in lifestyle became beneficial for my health as well. Because I have type 1 diabetes, I was able to observe within the day the benefits of a raw vegetarian/vegan diet (less spikes, good control of body weight, no vitamin deficiencies – I am well above my 5/day as you can imagine-). Gradually, I saw more benefits… my skin feels smoother and looks more radiant, my hair and nails feel softer and stronger and, (okay I know this is going to sound ridiculous) last month I had my yearly eye sight revision at Boots and my short sightedness reduced to 0.25 and I don’t need prescription glasses or contacts lenses anymore. I do believe that all these are because of the extraordinary amounts or fresh salads and fruits that I eat with every meal (plus I also treat my hypoglycemias using bananas).

I do use iron supplements (but, I used these anyway even before converting to a plant based diet).

I haven’t thought even for a minute to abandon my efforts and, in fact, I want to manage to become a vegan by excluding even this little bit of protein that I have for lunch daily. I feel very positive and I only have good things to say about vegan diets.

What I find extraordinarily difficult is to explain to people why I want to become a vegan. When Diamattic explained this in one of his posts above I didn't give to his advise the consideration it deserved at the time but, I now can understand what he meant. You see, if I told people that I am becoming a vegan because of a religious change then, I suspect they would be respectful and not comment on my choice (or, at least, not openly to me). However, when I tell them that I want to become a vegan because I love animals and I don’t want to kill them and eat them, they look at me as if I am an absolute weirdo!

They tell me all stories you can imagine in an effort to persuade me that I am making a mistake. And I don’t understand this reaction… I mean, they eat flesh, tissues, fat, tendons, blood, a bee’s vomit, the fluid coming out of an animal’s breastfeeding gland and the product of a hen’s menstruation cycle… and I eat vegetables, fruits, grains and seeds… and I am the one who is weird???

So far, my attempt has proven to be good for animals, good for the environment and good for my health and I feel encouraged to keep on trying.

Thank you for your post and I wish you a lovely weekend.

Regards
Josephine
 
Hi Josephine!! Sounds like we're not so different. Yes I keep rising until lunch as well. So now I inject 1 unit. Eat. An hour later another 1/2-1 and around noon another 1/2-1. So 3 injections before lunch!! I've tried so many things and nothing works in the morning. I always rise. Sometimes much faster and higher without avocado. Not eating is MUCH worse . I just keep rising until about 1pm or even until lunch at 3 and these extra boluses stop the rise. I am very anal about bs. I like to stay between 80 and 100. I don't digest carbs and I might as well just slap them on my derrière, no chewing required. I am grain free as well as almost dairy free. They make me insulin resistant. Avocado at lunch and dinner keep me low and slow. Very steady. Too many Nuts will make me insulin resistant as well, same with saturated fat and excess protein.
I don't eat the same food everyday ( except avocado) but I do eat the same macros at each given meal. Now I know my dose and very few meter surprises. Insulin and I don't get along too well so I like tiny doses. I could never get my insulin there at the same time as my food and bs was all over the place. I cannot random eat. This was most likely the protein element. I dose for half my protein. So if I eat 15g (2 oz ) I dose as if it were 7 carbs. If I split my .8g per kg over the whole day it's much better for me than all at once. If I eat over 3 oz I need a split dose.
Because I don't digest carbs well I need a very high fat diet ( in macros, not loads of food). I eat 80% fat, 15% protein and 5% carbs all in avocado, veggies and a FEW nuts as snacks. If I don't eat avocado I am starving. Ridiculous. But I suppose the fat and all that fiber keeps digestion slow. That's why I think lettuce spikes me. Digesting it too fast even with loads of fat.
Exercise raises me like crazy. I have no idea how to bolus for it and not up for a new diabetic challenge. Lol. It worked well before insulin. I wish it still did as I really miss yoga!!

I hope you are well. You're always so happy in your posts. I missed you as you seem to always bring up subjects and experiences that I too have !! Some day we shall conquer this thing!! Yeah right!!!
 
@Bluemarine Josephine Nicely put. You are obviously not as scary as me in real life as nobody has ever questioned my veganism to my face lol Perhaps it helped that I was veggie for ages before so it was not such a shock to others.

If veganism is something that you feel strongly about in your heart, then what does it matter what others think? If they have a problem, it is their problem and not yours x
 
It just occurred to me ( not sure why it didn't before haha) butncould it be the toast with the avocado in the morning? Or the combination? I just eat the avocado with one ounce of smoked salmon or turkey with a few celery chunks. No carbs to speak of

Nothing really' works' in the morning but this works better than most.
 
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