Type 1: Prescription fine

Funnily enough, I've been using mostly Boots for the last 5 years and they've asked for the card everytime until I showed it and keep a record of whether I have one (had a chat with them about it).

Brian_H said:

without going into details as to why, it is "get out of jail free".

if you want an explanation, send me a PM and I'll explain in private

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I've read all your posts on this thread and I don't agree with you [that there are any Get Out of Jail Free defences, other than actually having possessed a valid certificate at the time of the prescription exemption claim].

I think Brian_H's claims on this can be summarised into 3 groups, one of which has merit and two which IMO don't:

1. That as there is no time limit for payment, charges could be paid on demand and penalties perhaps thereby avoided. This has some merit.

2. That some behaviour of the pharmacist exonerates the patient. This has no merit as a defence, even in the extreme and unlikely case where the patient could prove that the pharmacist or doctor or other health care professional assured the patient that the meaning of the wording on the exemption claim tick box was somehow different than its plain and common sense meaning. This has no merit as a defence. It is a plea in mitigation.

3. That a Ken Dodd defence can be used. This confuses the criminal and civil law and the respective burdens of proof. The Ken Dodd defence (which is pretty disreputable and tenuous anyway) is a defence against the criminal standard of proof of intent. In a civil case such as this, the standard of proof is weaker, not stronger. Intent need not be proved beyond reasonable doubt. In a civil matter the case is only ever proven on the balance of probability. The Ken Dodd defence has no merit here. At best, it is a plea in mitigation.

Brian_H said:

I don't know if you are missing something or not LOL

In this thread I honestly cannot remember who has had a penalty charge letter and who has not had one, so Tim
1. if you have had a penalty charge letter and the pharmacy has asked and you have not shown one and then they have written "card not seen" in your presence, then you do not have a leg to stand on (unless you did have a valid card, in which case the penalty should be waived if you can provide proof)
2. if you have had a penalty charge letter and the pharmacy has asked and you have not shown one and then they have never written "card not seen", then you have a "get out of jail free"
3. if you have had a penalty charge letter and the pharmacy has never asked, then you have a "get out of jail free"

The only other situations could be
4. you have had a penalty charge letter and the pharmacy did ask and you did not show one, they did not say that they would write "card not seen" in your presence, but it turns out that they did write "card not seen" when you had gone
5. you have had a penalty charge letter and the pharmacy has never asked, but it turns out that they did write "card not seen" when you had gone

edit: The only situation that apply to me is 3 (always, in 40 years).
If 5 applies to me, then obviously I am unaware that it does, but now that I do have a card and still not been asked, if they wrote "card not seen" when I had gone, then something would now look out of order.

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Question for Brian_H:

If you drive without a licence and without insurance for 40 years, and when finally stopped, your defence is "no one ever asked me to produce evidence before", how effective is that defence? This is your situation 3.

Mod edit: Consecutive posts merged.

Brian_H said:

that's because there are things that I have not elaborated upon, for reasons which I am not prepared to discuss openly

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Then you shouldn't really be talking about them on an open forum then. "PM me for my secret knowledge". That's just trolling. Leave it out.

Brian_H said:

@Spiker could you just stop it, or take it up by PM ??

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Stop what? Stop providing arguments against contentious claims that you refuse to substantiate?

You are making claims on here that I think are misleading and potentially harmful. You explicitly refuse to justify your claims in open debate. You should delete your own posts unless you are willing to back them up openly.

Instead you want to be able to make controversial claims in public and then say "PM me and only then I will back them up". Seriously I think you should not post at all if that is your attitude. This is not a conspiracy theory site. And you are trolling.

Mod edit: Consecutive posts merged.

I have been sent the additional penalty charge notification, so my "fine" for 25 years of incompetence by the NHS is £136, which I won't be paying by the way.

As far as the bigger picture is concerned, is anyone doing anything to object as a group? That's not a criticism, it's a genuine question.
I would have thought that this is a situation that Diabetes UK should be trying to address and driving - I don't seem to be able to find any suggestion that this is the case - anyone?

Spiker said:

Stop what? Stop providing arguments against contentious claims that you refuse to substantiate?

You are making claims on here that I think are misleading and potentially harmful. You explicitly refuse to justify your claims in open debate. You should delete your own posts unless you are willing to back them up openly.

Instead you want to be able to make controversial claims in public and then say "PM me and only then I will back them up". Seriously I think you should not post at all if that is your attitude. This is not a conspiracy theory site. And you are trolling.

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well said sir

I have an exception certificate, but no idea where it is and I expect it is due to expire sometime toward the end of the year plus I've moved house since I applied for it. Does anyone know how I can find out when it expires or who I need to notify of my new address so that the reminder that is meant to be sent out reaches me.

thanks

Lynmi said:

I have an exception certificate, but no idea where it is and I expect it is due to expire sometime toward the end of the year plus I've moved house since I applied for it. Does anyone know how I can find out when it expires or who I need to notify of my new address so that the reminder that is meant to be sent out reaches me.

thanks

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I am pretty sure you can find out here:-

For more information, visit the Ask Us section of our website http://www.nhsbsa.nhs.uk/pecs. Alternatively, you can contact us via our website click here or by telephone on 0300 330 9291.

bobbybear said:

I have been sent the additional penalty charge notification, so my "fine" for 25 years of incompetence by the NHS is £136, which I won't be paying by the way.

As far as the bigger picture is concerned, is anyone doing anything to object as a group? That's not a criticism, it's a genuine question.
I would have thought that this is a situation that Diabetes UK should be trying to address and driving - I don't seem to be able to find any suggestion that this is the case - anyone?

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This is what DUK has to say about the fines.
http://www.diabetes.org.uk/About_us/News/People-with-diabetes-fined-for-claiming-free-prescriptions/

bobbybear said:

I am pretty sure you can find out here:-

For more information, visit the Ask Us section of our website http://www.nhsbsa.nhs.uk/pecs. Alternatively, you can contact us via our website click here or by telephone on 0300 330 9291.

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Thanks, I'll give then a call x

Can we please keep this topic friendly? There doesn't need to be any accusations or name-calling going on. Any more of this and the thread will be closed.

This may or may not be of assistance to anyone else who has objections to the way this has been implemented - please read the e-mail chain from the bottom up for it to make sense.

Dear Ms ****

Thank you for your response - However, I am afraid you are mistaken.

It may not be recorded in your files, but I was told by the supervisor that as I had verbally registered the complaint the account would be frozen whilst the case was investigated.

I have not made any payment as a protest to the way in which this process is being dealt with - not my individual case, but the whole process nationally.

Frankly, if I had received an invoice from NHSBSA for the £16.10 prescription charge and a notification that an exception certificate was not in place, I would have paid it, completed the appropriate documentation and moved on. My objection was and is to the wholly inappropriate "fines", both initially and secondarily that are being applied.

I appreciate that you have no power to address the implementation of this tightening of the rules, but what has not been considered is the circumstances surrounding the diagnosis of diabetes 25 years ago or the way that process was dealt with at that time by the medical profession.

I know, and I know that the NHSBSA know how many Diabetics have been caught out by this - there are numerous cases already highlighted on diabetic organisations websites and in social media. If a sensible policy had been to initially notify rather than fine those who have innocently fallen into this trap we could all be doing something more productive with our time than wasting the NHS's valuable resources.

Regards

Bob Mears

From: PECS NHSBSA (NHS BUSINESS SERVICES AUTHORITY) [mailto:nhsbsapecs@nhs.net]
Sent: 24 February 2015 16:34
To: me@bmpr.co.uk
Subject: NHSBSA - Prescription Exemption Checking Service

Dear Mr Mears,

Thank you for your email regarding prescription exemption checks.

Upon looking into your records I can see that in the conversation between yourself and a Supervisor on 22/01/15 you were advised a Surcharge would be incurred if no payment was made within 28 days of the initial letter as you are liable for the charge. At no point it was advised that the account would be placed on hold while it was investigated.

There has been no change in policy, since 1968 Medical Exemption Certificates have been in place and always need renewed after 5 years.

If you wish to take this to your MP you can do so, but please be aware that the Penalty Charge and Surcharge still apply.

For more information, visit the Ask Us section of our website http://www.nhsbsa.nhs.uk/pecs. Alternatively, you can contact us via our website click here or by telephone on 0300 330 9291.

Regards

***** ****

Customer Contact Officer

Prescription Exemption Checking Service (PECS)

NHS BSA

From: webservd@www.ppa.org.uk [mailto:webservd@www.ppa.org.uk]
Sent: 20 February 2015 15:02
To: PECS NHSBSA (NHS BUSINESS SERVICES AUTHORITY)
Subject: NHSBSA - Prescription Exemption Checking Service

****************************************************************************

NHSBSA - Prescription Exemption Checking Service Friday, February 20, 2015 at 15:01:36 (GMT)

****************************************************************************
Exemption category: Medical exemption
Dispencing date: -- / October / 2014
Query

I am a Type 1 Insulin Dependent Diabetic and have been since 1990 - No memory of the circumstances surrounding exception certificates at that time, but have been eligible for exception since then.

Have received no notification of any change to rules, which I believe came into operation in 2002? or that I have spent the past 25 years claiming exception inappropriately.

I know that I am not alone in these circumstances as has been demonstrated by the conversation I have today (20/02/15) had with Diabetes UK.

In addition, on receipt of your initial communication around 20/01/2015 I called your office, explained these circumstances and had a supervisor call me back.

I made the complaint to him and was advised that my complaint would be registered and the charge notice put on hold while it was investigated - However, I have this morning received further correspondence advising me of an additional surcharge bringing the total to £136.85.

This is a highly inappropriate charge against a Prescription which, had I not been exempt would have been £16.10 and cannot be justified as I have neither been advised of the change in policy nor been advised of an inappropriate claim in 25 years.

For your information, I applied for and was granted an exemption certificate within a week of your first communication.

Had that initial communication been an advisory that I should obtain an exemption certificate I would happily have done so.

Bureaucracy at its worst!

Please review this matter accordingly

My next communication will be with my local MP Mr Owen Paterson.

********************************************************************************************************************

The sort of response from NHSBSA I would expect. I hope they don't issue further penalty charges since you have now admitted to them that you have not held a MEC since 1990. There is a post elsewhere on this thread that suggests they only have records going back 2 years, so I would be careful what you admit.

Thanks Lovinglife and Bobbybear I've called and spoken to someone and they have updated my details and are sending me out a new card

softgirl123 said:

they still didnt ask to see the mec after all that.i give up..whats the point.

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The point is you now have a valid certificate that can be produced if they ask to see it. I dont understand what the problem is?

softgirl123 said:

they still didnt ask to see the mec after all that.i give up..whats the point.

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It's good that you are now in the system, and when your script is cross checked with the database you will not be receiving an unwelcome letter in the post .And you're covered for the next five years,

Signy

softgirl123 said:

they still didnt ask to see the mec after all that.i give up..whats the point.

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The point is you are now legally obtaining free prescriptions. Previously, you were not. If you took a train journey and your ticket wasn't checked would you complain to the rail network asking them what is the point and that you give up ? Of course not. Being in posession of exemption certificate avoids further problems. Also remember, you are allowed to show them your card if it makes you feel better.

well its been 17 days and no certificate has turned up yet and getting real low on my thyroxin and lisinopril tablets, I refuse to pay for the prescription even though I can claim it back its a hassle I can do without atm

Gaz-M said:

well its been 17 days and no certificate has turned up yet and getting real low on my thyroxin and lisinopril tablets, I refuse to pay for the prescription even though I can claim it back its a hassle I can do without atm

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Have you contacted them to find out what is happening?