Patch said:Everybody on this forum is wrong.
Except me.
Useless Pretty Boy said:I'm sorry, but you're making a classic mistake. I never said it wasn't possible to get stronger, or to be strong on a low carb diet. You're assuming that strength and muscle size are directly related. They're just not. Hence a power lifter who is the same size as an aesthetic body builder is much stronger."
Being ripped has almost nothing to do with size and everything to do with percentage body fat. Again chalk and cheese, different goals. Having said that Mariusz Pudzianowski is pretty ripped considering he doesn't follow a cutting (ketogenic) diet unlike most body builders.Did you ever wonder why the guys who partake in World Strongest Man contests aren't uber-ripped like show body builders? The training principles are entirely different.
An increase in strength will not always be accompanied by an increase in size,
I think genetics plays a much more important part than training principles, there is very little value comparing individuals in this way. A better approach would be an assessment of an individual's progress over time than comparing them to someone else.while an increase in size will not necessarily mean you are stronger than a person smaller than you. For exercise purposes, training for either requires a different technique based on resistance, recuperation period, hydration and overall diet.
I don’t bother reading these muscle magazine articles either, they are just concerned with filling space and often contradict each other. Best hop over to muscletalk.co.uk, plenty of real life advice over there. There are some big guys over there on ketogenic diets.I'm going to gloss over the Dave Draper article, as actually it doesn't say anything to contradict what I said. It also points out that if you're small and want to gain size, carbs are good. Removing the carbs is highlighted there as useful depending on vast size to begin with and a wish to lose fat. I will say that I'm impressed by the men's health article. This is the first time I've read of a study producing these effects, and don't get me wrong, it's been tried before, it's just never worked.
Completely agree, you’d be naïve to think any top body builder or strongman doesn’t get ‘assistance’, even natural body building contests have been suspect. Kind of begs the question why compare normal diabetics with these kinds of people?I do notice that it doesn't actually list his entire regime. It works in generalities...and that always makes me suspicious with people gaining muscle. Unfortunately, I've grown to learn that if someone gets truely remarkable results, something is often amiss. Without being too cynical, it's not like it's difficult to get your hands on any kind of growth hormone or muscle stimulating products. I know three guys in my gym who deal - it's one of those things.
Notwithstanding the definition of ‘complex carb’ which most people don’t realise is based on a molecular definition -therefore white bread is a complex carb even though it is metabolised as quick as table sugar, a simple carb. I’ve yet to read research that complex carbs offer any more benefit than carefully chosen proteins, fats and fibrous carbs. I have no idea of Ali’s religious views but I would use the word ‘design’ to indicate millions of years of evolution. And that is the key millions of years, not a few hundred since the advent of intensive grain production. We have never ate as much refined carb in our existence as we have in recent years. In evolutionary terms we haven’t even noticed the change yet, let alone adapted to it.And Ali, again you indicate that we are 'designed'. Unless you believe in the literal creation according to Genesis, that simply isn't true. We adapt and make use of anything. It's one of the wonderful things about organic evolution. Now doubtless, extreme amounts of refined carbohydrate IS dangerous, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about restrained amounts of complex carbs, which research shows to be beneficial.
Yeah, I suppose there are people who religiously take their glucose with their whey to increase the insulin spike and transport the proteins during their body’s allocated window of opportunity. Most of the big guys I’ve known have never bothered with it. Most if it is smokescreen, articles put out by top athletes to disguise the fact they are using anabolics. They eat big sure but you are comparing normal people with body builders who want unnatural growth. Tell me if it is virtually impossible to put on muscle mass whilst following a ketogenic diet, how come don’t Inuit adults have the same muscle mass as their children? Surely then it would be impossible to grow without carbs.As for carb propoganda? Well, I don't think Muscle and Fitness really gives a hoot about whether you eat carbs or not, given that most of the food suppliments they advertise always highlight that they're high protein and usually carb free. It doesn't change the fact that the vast majority get the best results when carbohydrate is taken after exercise. It produces the fastest recovery time. This has been known for a while, even since before McDonalds took over the world.
But aren’t we comparing bodybuilder ‘growth’ which is extreme and unnatural and normal growth?Now I'm never going to argue that body builders are the picture of health we should all follow. I simply tried to point out that it is not considered possible (albeit, bar that mens health article) to gain muscle without the exercise or carbohydrate. I was simply saying your plateau is not from muscle gain.
Maybe she has seen the improvements in lipids first hand like the rest of us following low carb.And I am so confused by why you're quite happy to accept the dangers of od-ing on carb and protein, but refuse to believe that fat could have similar dangers.
What are you advocating? You do realise that this is a low carb forum don’t you?Are you aware that even something like celery, if eaten in large enough quantities, could kill you. It's the chlorophyll. Everything is dangerous in excess. But that's never what I've advocated...regardless of how much you seem to be arguing as if I were.
Anyway, that seems like an awful long post for explanation of one line that I said earlier. I may just stop posting in threads like these. as people like Ali seem to have a huge hissy fit any time I say something that offends their anticarb dogma.
Guess there's no evangelist like a born-again evangelist, eh?
Completely agree, you’d be naïve to think any top body builder or strongman doesn’t get ‘assistance’, even natural body building contests have been suspect. Kind of begs the question why compare normal diabetics with these kinds of people?[/quote]I do notice that it doesn't actually list his entire regime. It works in generalities...and that always makes me suspicious with people gaining muscle. Unfortunately, I've grown to learn that if someone gets truely remarkable results, something is often amiss. Without being too cynical, it's not like it's difficult to get your hands on any kind of growth hormone or muscle stimulating products. I know three guys in my gym who deal - it's one of those things.
What are you advocating? You do realise that this is a low carb forum don’t you?[/quote]Are you aware that even something like celery, if eaten in large enough quantities, could kill you. It's the chlorophyll. Everything is dangerous in excess. But that's never what I've advocated...regardless of how much you seem to be arguing as if I were.
I still get a mouthful of bile spat at me for thinking that a small bowl of pasta or porridge won't do any harm.
Or that's what it feels like. I low carb but I don't hate or deride carbs, which seems to put me at odds with a fair few people here. Thus, conversations like these. Woohoo.
Romola said:Please could we get back to the subject of the thread?
I have found that my plateau is begining to go.
I upped the exercise (although I don't actually do very much compared with many of you) and had a look to see if portion size had inched up a bit (which it had). I cut down on alcohol - so only have one drink 2 or 3 days a week instead of a couple on most days. I still have my square of dark chocolate most evenings though.
I am now just 3 lb off getting to a BMI of under 25, which is my main goal.
After that I will continue to follow a low glycemic load eating regime (never use the "D" word :evil: ) and see how it goes. If I could get down to about 24 I would be even happier - but the good news is that the plateau doesn't have to last for ever.
Actually, I don't think I really referenced you much, if at all.Doczoc said:Maybe we can discuss it further when you've thought up some names to call me?
Useless Pretty Boy said:Actually, I don't think I really referenced you much, if at all.Doczoc said:Maybe we can discuss it further when you've thought up some names to call me?
Back to Romola, then. And well done! Alcohol can often make quite a bit of difference. My dad will usually drop about half a stone or more when he cuts out the red wine for a while.
milesrf said:Have you noticed that the term complex carbs tends to be associated with both bad advice from some people, since it includes types of starch which digest about as fast as table sugar, and good advice from others, since it includes fiber which you don't digest at all, and also includes a few types of carbs in between? I suspect that we could clear up some of the confusion if we stop using that term much at all.
It seems that some of the diabetes experts once decided that all complex carbohydrates would digest slowly if at all and it was a waste of time to do any research to check that idea - but when the research was finally done, it showed that the idea wasn't true for many of the more common types.
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