Ivor Cummins.

Guzzler

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I've just seen this short video presented by this guy who I'd never encountered before and although a lot of the info went over my head I thought some of the folks here might enjoy his approach to lectures. His diagrams are ones to watch.

 

SockFiddler

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Carbohydrates. It's literally a global conspiracy.

This video is fascinating and horrifying at the same time - he's not saying anything new, he's just explaining the science to what has been known for decades. Decades.

These big food companies that hold our "healthy eating" institutions for ransom. We were all so horrified that cigarette manufactures knew their products caused cancer and covered it up, but that's a drop in the ocean compared to the Carb Conspiracy. It absolutely blows my mind.

Anyone know a maverick, dare-devil lawyer? Let's try bringing a case against the Eatwell Plate people and their incredibly well-financed, sugar and carb-producing funders. And I'm not kidding: let's actually do this. We're still being told to eat **** that - it is now demonstrable - will kill you. Even after we've been diagnosed with Diabetes. Even from early age. Crikey, we wean our kids on carbs right from the get-go.

It's got to stop. I mean, just listen to this video - how can there be any doubt at all that carbs are bad for you?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/07/the-sugar-conspiracy-robert-lustig-john-yudkin

Edit: From his own blog:

http://www.thefatemperor.com/blog/

The talking heads currently blame the victims. We blame the bad nutritional science that has been foisted on the people. Ireland is on a collision course for diabesity Armageddon. Someone has to do something about it: http://www.ipcra.org/ireland-leads-the-obesity-epidemic-in-europe

Written upon his return from the PHCUK conference in Manchester.

All this good work - even from our wonderful hosts and associates at PHC and diabetes.co.uk - will struggle to take hold unless the loudest (and richest) voices are help to account and silenced.
 
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Winnie53

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It's not just corporations that are the problem. It's us too. Giving up sugar, grains, and unhealthy seed oils, eating a lot less fruit, is not easy. It takes determination and perseverance. We need to model for our friends, family, and co-workers that it can be done, and that's it's not that hard once we get through the learning curve. Fat's also a lot more flavorful than sugar and grains. ;)

I [heart] Ivor Cummins.
 

ickihun

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SockFiddler said:
Carbohydrates. It's literally a global conspiracy.

This video is fascinating and horrifying at the same time - he's not saying anything new, he's just explaining the science to what has been known for decades. Decades.

These big food companies that hold our "healthy eating" institutions for ransom. We were all so horrified that cigarette manufactures knew their products caused cancer and covered it up, but that's a drop in the ocean compared to the Carb Conspiracy. It absolutely blows my mind.

Anyone know a maverick, dare-devil lawyer? Let's try bringing a case against the Eatwell Plate people and their incredibly well-financed, sugar and carb-producing funders. And I'm not kidding: let's actually do this. We're still being told to eat **** that - it is now demonstrable - will kill you. Even after we've been diagnosed with Diabetes. Even from early age. Crikey, we wean our kids on carbs right from the get-go.

It's got to stop. I mean, just listen to this video - how can there be any doubt at all that carbs are bad for you?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/07/the-sugar-conspiracy-robert-lustig-john-yudkin

Edit: From his own blog:

http://www.thefatemperor.com/blog/



Written upon his return from the PHCUK conference in Manchester.

All this good work - even from our wonderful hosts and associates at PHC and diabetes.co.uk - will struggle to take hold unless the loudest (and richest) voices are help to account and silenced.
Hun. Only trouble I have is when newspapers quote type2 diabetes is going to bankcrupt the nhs they don't mean by drugs and treatment. They mean being sued for ill advice which has caused death, loss of limbs and sight. All expensive claims.

I don't want to be involved in bankcrupting the nhs.
I'd fight against it!
Sorry hun.

A heartless person might but it will bring down the nhs, permanently.
 

SockFiddler

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Hun. Only trouble I have is when newspapers quote type2 diabetes is going to bankcrupt the nhs they don't mean by drugs and treatment. They mean being sued for ill advice which has caused death, loss of limbs and sight. All expensive claims.

I don't want to be involved in bankcrupting the nhs.
I'd fight against it!
Sorry hun.

A heartless person might but it will bring down the nhs, permanently.

But the Eatwell Plate isn't an NHS creation, but (as explored on another thread which I can't currently remember, but suspect it culd have been one of mine) instead is monitored and updated by The British Nutrition Foundation:

https://www.nutrition.org.uk/healthyliving/healthydiet/eatwell.html

These are the people who, last year, thought adults could manage a whole extra 5g of sugar a day, increasing instead of decreasing the recommended daily allowance. Which wouldn't be such a bad thing, until you see who the corporate partners are:

https://www.nutrition.org.uk/aboutbnf/supporters/memberorganisations.html

This is my problem. You have an organisation that has the reach to create and control the recommended diet for the country, as handed out by the NHS, which is being funded by the very products and companies that specifically need us to continue eating ***** if they are to continue and thrive. That's not just an accidental conflict of interest but a very cynical synergy.

And if you look at the rest of the site (and then read the statement there on the Corporate Sponsor link) you can see how carefully they're balancing the "Good for everyone! Health and nutrition research!" with the "Protecting your Carb-Peddling interests".

So they're not just aware - as the tobacco companies were - that their products cause lasting harm to people, but they're also masquerading them as healthy still. The lie here exists and is perpetuated every day in cooking classes and doctor's offices and hospitals and everywhere that has a picture of the Eatwell Plate on the wall.

I'm not saying "Sure the NHS!", I'm saying the NHS is as much a victim as everyone else, and that there's a far darker, more cynical force making sure "Carbs are good! Sugar isn't so bad!" is the message that we grow up with, no matter our health condition, age, or what other science might say.

And those are the people we need to go after. No-one sued the cardboard box manufacturers for delivering cigarettes to people, just as it would make no sense to sue the NHS for delivering information that was otherwise approved (though, perhaps, they should have been a little more skeptical when they saw British Sugar was investing in that message...).
 

dbr10

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But the Eatwell Plate isn't an NHS creation, but (as explored on another thread which I can't currently remember, but suspect it culd have been one of mine) instead is monitored and updated by The British Nutrition Foundation:

https://www.nutrition.org.uk/healthyliving/healthydiet/eatwell.html

These are the people who, last year, thought adults could manage a whole extra 5g of sugar a day, increasing instead of decreasing the recommended daily allowance. Which wouldn't be such a bad thing, until you see who the corporate partners are:

https://www.nutrition.org.uk/aboutbnf/supporters/memberorganisations.html

This is my problem. You have an organisation that has the reach to create and control the recommended diet for the country, as handed out by the NHS, which is being funded by the very products and companies that specifically need us to continue eating ***** if they are to continue and thrive. That's not just an accidental conflict of interest but a very cynical synergy.

And if you look at the rest of the site (and then read the statement there on the Corporate Sponsor link) you can see how carefully they're balancing the "Good for everyone! Health and nutrition research!" with the "Protecting your Carb-Peddling interests".

So they're not just aware - as the tobacco companies were - that their products cause lasting harm to people, but they're also masquerading them as healthy still. The lie here exists and is perpetuated every day in cooking classes and doctor's offices and hospitals and everywhere that has a picture of the Eatwell Plate on the wall.

I'm not saying "Sure the NHS!", I'm saying the NHS is as much a victim as everyone else, and that there's a far darker, more cynical force making sure "Carbs are good! Sugar isn't so bad!" is the message that we grow up with, no matter our health condition, age, or what other science might say.

And those are the people we need to go after. No-one sued the cardboard box manufacturers for delivering cigarettes to people, just as it would make no sense to sue the NHS for delivering information that was otherwise approved (though, perhaps, they should have been a little more skeptical when they saw British Sugar was investing in that message...).
Brilliant.
 

SockFiddler

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Oh, it's even better...

From this page: https://www.nutrition.org.uk/aboutbnf/whoweare/funding.html


7dbcfb088b663127730b798dbc14c76b_w800.jpg


Literally almost one half of the BNF's income stream (2013 - 14) and by far their biggest source of income was "Donations from Corporate Members".

These companies aren't stupid. They're very, very good at making money. So why would they possibly sink so much money into the BNF if they weren't getting anything out of it in return?

This is the source of our poison.


Edit: 15 minutes on from posting this and I'm still utterly shocked by it.

Further Edit: So I decided to see if financial statements from more recent years reflected a less-likely-to-have-been-influenced-by-corporation funding model...

The most recent report I could find was 2015 - 2016: https://www.nutrition.org.uk/attachments/article/190/BNF Annual Review 2015-2016 WEB FINAL.pdf

Page 24
Income from "donations and subscriptions": £754, 745
Income from all other sources: £736, 756

That's right, folks, the BNF is now sponsored by people whose business depends on the consumption of sugar and carbs by more than 50% - except I can't find a list of exactly who those "donors" are. But, in the searching, I found the following article from 2010:

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...aving-its-cake-and-eating-it-too-1925034.html
 
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JohnEGreen

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A list of donors to the BNF
Well quite a few of them anyway

Associated British Foods plc
British Sugar plc
Cadbury
Coca-Cola Great Britain and Ireland
HJ Heinz Ltd
Innocent Drinks
Kellogg Company of Great Britain Limited
Kraft Foods UK Ltd
McDonald’s Restaurants Ltd
National Starch
Nestlé UK Ltd
PepsiCo UK Ltd
Potato Council
Procter & Gamble Limited
Tate & Lyle Sugars
The Ryvita Company
Unilever plc
United Biscuits (UK) Limited
Weetabix Limited
 

Brunneria

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@Guzzler

Ivor Cummins is a great source. Have you seen the rest of his You Tube vids? He has them on a brilliantly interconnected range of subjects, all equally well researched and well referenced; heart disease risk, Vit D deficiency, Kraft and insulin resistance, fasting, cholesterol. Each and every one of them worth watching.
 
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Guzzler

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I watched his lecture on vitD last night, too. I hadn't realised the wealth of evidence out there when it comes to health science and how far ahead it is than the accepted norm. And the evidence for drug companies having too heavy an influence on critical thinking. The stuff about uvb and uva was eye opening.

Eta. Am I being naive in thinking that if non health professionals like us can find this information so easily and with only a nudge in the right direction then HCPs cannot, cannot be unaware of the ever mounting evidence against the carb rich diet? My lowly GP and DN are educated people, what must we think of their pushing the dross that is the Eatwell Plate (and of statins which seems to me to be one great big fat money spinning scam by big pharma) when they have to be aware of the contradictions? Why, oh why when you know that your advice would harm your patients would you carry on? Are these people scared of going against the flow, raising their heads above the parapet, putting their patients health before their own standing in the medical community? Are they perpetuating the harm already done by the carbs?
 
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Dark Horse

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But the Eatwell Plate isn't an NHS creation, but (as explored on another thread which I can't currently remember, but suspect it culd have been one of mine) instead is monitored and updated by The British Nutrition Foundation:

https://www.nutrition.org.uk/healthyliving/healthydiet/eatwell.html

These are the people who, last year, thought adults could manage a whole extra 5g of sugar a day, increasing instead of decreasing the recommended daily allowance. Which wouldn't be such a bad thing, until you see who the corporate partners are:

https://www.nutrition.org.uk/aboutbnf/supporters/memberorganisations.html

This is my problem. You have an organisation that has the reach to create and control the recommended diet for the country, as handed out by the NHS, which is being funded by the very products and companies that specifically need us to continue eating ***** if they are to continue and thrive. That's not just an accidental conflict of interest but a very cynical synergy.

And if you look at the rest of the site (and then read the statement there on the Corporate Sponsor link) you can see how carefully they're balancing the "Good for everyone! Health and nutrition research!" with the "Protecting your Carb-Peddling interests".

So they're not just aware - as the tobacco companies were - that their products cause lasting harm to people, but they're also masquerading them as healthy still. The lie here exists and is perpetuated every day in cooking classes and doctor's offices and hospitals and everywhere that has a picture of the Eatwell Plate on the wall.

I'm not saying "Sure the NHS!", I'm saying the NHS is as much a victim as everyone else, and that there's a far darker, more cynical force making sure "Carbs are good! Sugar isn't so bad!" is the message that we grow up with, no matter our health condition, age, or what other science might say.

And those are the people we need to go after. No-one sued the cardboard box manufacturers for delivering cigarettes to people, just as it would make no sense to sue the NHS for delivering information that was otherwise approved (though, perhaps, they should have been a little more skeptical when they saw British Sugar was investing in that message...).

The Eatwell Plate was replaced by the "Eatwell Guide" in March 2016:- https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ta/file/579388/eatwell_model_guide_report.pdf

It is produced by Public Health England, based on dietary recommendations from COMA (now defunct) and the Scientific Advisory Committee on Nutrition. https://www.gov.uk/government/groups/scientific-advisory-committee-on-nutrition

You might find the SACN report on Carbohydrates and Health report interesting. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/sacn-carbohydrates-and-health-report

Not sure why that last link isn't woking @JohnEGreen but it works fine if you cut and paste it.
 
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JohnEGreen

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I keep getting page not found on that last link.
 

Winnie53

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SockFiddler I get that you're mad. I am too. But here's the problem. You can penalize diabetics for not making appropriate lifestyle changes, but you can't force them to do so. The majority of diabetics don't want to give up their sugary and starchy foods. It's truth seekers like Ivor Cummins, forums like this, local groups like mine, and individuals like you and me who will facilitate much needed changes one person at a time.

Having volunteered and worked within the non-profit world my entire adult life, I've learned that diabetes research and education requires money. I have to ask, where is that money going to come from? Government? Some, yes. But where's the rest going to come from?

I don't believe that most corporations are evil. They sell what people need or want.

The reason I left the non-profit world is because I spent a third of my year fundraising - (actually more than that if you include all the volunteer time I donated) - and didn't have enough hours to provide the all the programs and services I wanted to provide that I believe people needed.

So I decided to leave the non-profit world - (best decision I ever made) - got a job working in government that provides core services, and chose to finance and volunteer my time as the facilitator of a local diabetes education, support, and walking group that I created from the ground up. And let me tell you, it's one of the hardest things I've ever done.

I naively thought that those recently diagnosed with diabetes would seek us out for help. That is not what happened. Our group is primarily made up of diabetics who are now having complications. I'm working on changing that, but my first priority is to help them make needed lifestyle changes, to reverse, reduce, or stop the progression of their complications, and to improve their overall health.

That's not to say there isn't a place for political action. But before you take that leap, I suggest you begin by making the changes needed to improve your health first and to experience helping a few diabetics along the way so you better understand the complexities of helping people.
 
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Bon83

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Im probably a bit off topic now but i think that there are a variety of people in the world and the big food corporations will tap into every single one of them and find a way to access every potential sales market they can! I work with people with a low income and a lot of them are unfortunate to believe that poor quality sugar laiden food is cheapest. They could be considered as safe clients by these food producers. It doesn't take much nowadays to masquerade carb heavy foods as healthy by sticking wholegrain or natural on the labelling. I think it takes quite a lot of energy to figure that out as we are bombarded by advertising day in day out. I try to limit carbs but I don't go very low and I still like fruit like apples and bananas - but I am aware of the low carb thinking. I remember being told by the diabetes Nurse (when they still thought I was type 2) that I probably wasn't eating enough carbs to 'stimulate' my pancreas. I am aware of this theory but didn't know if it was true or not?
 

Oldvatr

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I keep getting page not found on that last link.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/sacn-carbohydrates-and-health-report
If not getting this, then a search on sacn in theur searchbar will bring up a list of goodies.

There is also a report on sugar
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/sacns-sugars-and-health-recommendations-why-5

Edit to add:
Prof Ian Macdonald who was instrumental in the sacn reports is a diabetes specialist (apparently)
http://www.thesugarreductionsummit.co.uk/speaker/prof-ian-macdonald/
 
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SockFiddler

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It's an interesting perspective, @Winnie53 , and I'm grateful for your reply.

I, too, spent the last 5 years volunteering in a non-profit (though, luckily, fundraising was but a fraction of our time - annual monitoring was a far bigger bugbear) and the thing I learned from the people we worked for - families with disabled children - is that if you give people the right information, they'll generally follow it. And the more authority that information has when it's delivered, the faster that process will be.

I sort of want to quote the Guardian article from an earlier post verbatim here, but it's a long read (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/07/the-sugar-conspiracy-robert-lustig-john-yudkin) and basically posits that our high-and-climbing incidents of diabetes, cardiovascular disease and various other health-service-destroying nasties are a result of bad information that was taken up by those in authority and handed out to the masses.

There is a particularly interesting (and relevant) paragraph:

Look at a graph of postwar obesity rates and it becomes clear that something changed after 1980. In the US, the line rises very gradually until, in the early 1980s, it takes off like an aeroplane. Just 12% of Americans were obese in 1950, 15% in 1980, 35% by 2000. In the UK, the line is flat for decades until the mid-1980s, at which point it also turns towards the sky. Only 6% of Britons were obese in 1980. In the next 20 years that figure more than trebled. Today, two thirds of Britons are either obese or overweight, making this the fattest country in the EU. Type 2 diabetes, closely related to obesity, has risen in tandem in both countries.

The article goes on to demonstrate how the "Low fat, more carbs!" lobby gained control and, as a direct result of that powerfully-delivered advice, people followed it.

I have no doubt at all that if the advice changed suddenly to reflect actual nutritional science, people would manage it. And even if all people didn't (and of course they won't), at least the burden on our essential services would diminish.

You can penalize diabetics for not making appropriate lifestyle changes, but you can't force them to do so. The majority of diabetics don't want to give up their sugary and starchy foods.

I would say that the majority of diabetics (reading about the experiences of so many people when it comes to engaging with health services on this site alone) don't understand why they need to. And if they do, they're not then given the (relatively cheap compared to amputation, dialysis and transplant alternatives) tools to see the effect giving that stuff up has upon them.

I swear, if every T2 upon diagnosis was given a meter and the suggestion that they cut out carbs for 2 weeks - even without the tricky scientific information - we'd not even be having this conversation. Honestly, direct them to this website, prepare and care for them through any ketoflu they experience and, boom, you've got a lifer.

It's not about punishing lifestyles, or even statutory services who followed advice given them by "nutritional experts" (again, the article clearly demonstrates the bias and fashionability of nutritional "science" and how much of what we're told isn't based upon any science at all.), but giving people half a chance to stop poisoning themselves and their families and choose a lifestyle based upon honestly-gained information. If they're given the facts and still choose to eat carbs, that's their affair, and we live in a country that allows personal choice, whether good or bad. But as it is, LCHF is dismissed as a faddy or crash diet by the NHS and the information that people really need to heal themselves isn't getting out there. They/we have no choice at all.

I think this forum very clearly demonstrates that people, when given the correct information in a format they can understand, will try to do the "right" thing. And, sure, there's personal choice and the dopamine feedback loop and decades of imprinted nutritional advice to take into account, but everyone here has overcome that and reduced their personal risk of complication, so why shouldn't we expect that anyone can? Are we saying people on this site are super-special? No. We're all just people.

But currently, it's not even being talked about. There is absolutely zero discussion of another way to manage diabetes. Not in the press, not on TV, not on the NHS website, nowhere. And yet the answer to the imminent NHS crisis is carb reduction! The impact that carbs have on your body - from birth - has been and continues to be carefully hidden until some maverick like Dr Unwin or John Ludkin come along and risk their careers and reputations trying to drag that truth into the light.

That's not science. And that's not supply-and-demand. That's an industrial drug ring, working hard and paying good money to ensure we get addicted as infants and stay addicted to what they're peddling. We've been raised to be addicts, and that's not a clear and unbaised choice that anyone got to make. While I generally don't believe in "evil", I genuinely don't believe these companies have the interests of their consumers at heart. And I'm not saying "Sue them out of spite!" but "Sue them because they've been culpable for 40 years for a conspiracy that is still causing millions of deaths and money is the only language they speak".

I really admire your support group endeavour, Winnie. I wish you every luck (and whatever assistance I can offer from a distance). But you're swimming against the tide in a pool filled with people who just don't understand how the information they've been given all their lives is wrong. The authority of the message is too great to easily overcome; by the time you're facing life-changing complications, I guess you figure you've got not much else to lose, so why not think about low carbing?

But until this very simple, highly effective, drug-free solution is given the time of day, nothing is going to change. And yes, I think we should all be angry about that.


@Oldvatr : That sugar report absolutely blows my mind, too. It even acknowledges that, though carbs are made of sugar (excepting dietary fibre) it's only going to focus on "free sugars":

SACN has now published a comprehensive review of the scientific evidence concerning carbohydrates and health. A feature of this report is its focus on sugars.

So it's not actually concentrating on - or even looking at - carbs at all, but sliding past the starches (which it acknowledges are also made of sugars, but they're not "free" sugars and so, for the purpose of this particular review, don't count) and looking only at the refined white stuff.

Also, they don't actually list the research papers and studies they included in the literature they have based their review upon. So you can't tell whether they selected their source material with or without bias, though one paragraph ion particular sort of gives the game away:

While the evidence considered by SACN did not indicate an association between sugars intake and incidence of type 2 diabetes, evidence from prospective cohort studies did show that greater consumption of sugars-sweetened drinks is associated with increased risk type 2 diabetes.

Sorry. Went on a bit of a rant at this. Looks like my son is going to get a diagnosis of T2 soon, too. And all because I followed nutritional advice. People should be angry about this. We've been lied to and literally poisoned for years - even after the people who came up with the advice in the first place admitted that it was probably incorrect (also in the Guardian article).
 

Winnie53

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Im probably a bit off topic now but i think that there are a variety of people in the world and the big food corporations will tap into every single one of them and find a way to access every potential sales market they can! I work with people with a low income and a lot of them are unfortunate to believe that poor quality sugar laiden food is cheapest. They could be considered as safe clients by these food producers. It doesn't take much nowadays to masquerade carb heavy foods as healthy by sticking wholegrain or natural on the labelling. I think it takes quite a lot of energy to figure that out as we are bombarded by advertising day in day out. I try to limit carbs but I don't go very low and I still like fruit like apples and bananas - but I am aware of the low carb thinking. I remember being told by the diabetes Nurse (when they still thought I was type 2) that I probably wasn't eating enough carbs to 'stimulate' my pancreas. I am aware of this theory but didn't know if it was true or not?

Yes, it's a huge shift from processed to non-processed foods. We're fortunate that our local food bank works hard to make available healthy, non-processed foods. Right now I'm looking for someone to join our group to focus specifically on how to eat healthy with a limited food budget.
 
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CherryAA

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Yes, it's a huge shift from processed to non-processed foods. We're fortunate that our local food bank works hard to make available healthy, non-processed foods. Right now I'm looking for someone to join our group to focus specifically on how to eat healthy with a limited food budget.
I've done a few posts on this subject - in particular finding your local butchers and getting hold of chicken carcasses and bones for broth. Most butchers are clued into this now and will sell you a big bag of the stuff for a couple of pounds - there is enough meat and nutrition on there to feed yourself for a week -
 

Bon83

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Yes, it's a huge shift from processed to non-processed foods. We're fortunate that our local food bank works hard to make available healthy, non-processed foods. Right now I'm looking for someone to join our group to focus specifically on how to eat healthy with a limited food budget.
I have a great sympathy for people - at the point of desperation you don't really care about the future health issues of eating processed food. Likewise if your getting donations of massive bags of white pasta and rice you can't say no. nothing in the world is black and white