The insulin index

[Fleegle]

I don't really understand the insulin index so if someone could she some light it would be appreciated.

I have just about got my head around BG. Taking mushrooms as an example with virtually no carbs - why does it then take a lot of insulin? In general do we not want to eat foods that cause low BG but do produce insulin - because for type 2's at least generally they are not producing enough.

Is there any data that says you have too much insulin - other than the c test?

 

[bulkbiker]

because for type 2's at least generally they are not producing enough

Not really.. insulin resistance means we are producing what should be enough but our bodies don't respond well enough to it.
So eating less often and then eating food that don't spike insulin (LCHF) leads to regaining sensitivity to insulin. That's why I'm not an ND fan. The shakes and meal 3-4 times a day spikes insulin too often. but we've had that discussion a few times already.

 

[Bluetit1802]

http://www.mendosa.com/blog/?p=3624

this is an interesting blog on the subject because it gies some examples of processed foods compared to natural foods and what happens with low fat foods -where the insulin index score is much higher than the glycaemic load.

I can't find his Table 1 and can't find the expanded list of foods from this blog. Am I being dopey?

You Can See the Entire List Here

This greatly expanded list of foods tested for their Insulin Index is freely available online. The Glycemic Index, the Glycemic Load, and the Insulin Index for these 120 foods are in Table 1. I found it to be too difficult to read online, but printed it out and studied it on paper.

 

[CherryAA]

I have seen that one as well. Between the two links it's pretty complete.

GO butter and avocado!!!

I do find that it is far more accurate and helpful than GI\ GL as I said. Some of the foods that I would t think would spike me ( cucumber for example) are high in the insulin index. And I naturally gravitate toward low II foods like Macs and pecans over other nuts. Avo

Strange carrots are so low. I use one baby one for a mild hypo haha. Wish peanuts were on there. I really don't eat them any way but just curious

This may all be connected somehow to the concept that in the presence of high insulin the human body converts 10x as much carb into fructose as it would otherwise - hence fatty livers,visceral fat etc and why even real food carbs get to be the bad guy once you already have high insulin and T2 diabetes. ( the $64m dollar question is does the human body stop doing this once you get the insulin back down , or is that switch permanent once made ?

I can't quite see how these two things are connected at present but I can't help thinking they must be somehow! hence trying toget rid of the insulin!

 

[Bluetit1802]

I don't really understand the insulin index so if someone could she some light it would be appreciated.

I have just about got my head around BG. Taking mushrooms as an example with virtually no carbs - why does it then take a lot of insulin? In general do we not want to eat foods that cause low BG but do produce insulin - because for type 2's at least generally they are not producing enough.

Is there any data that says you have too much insulin - other than the c test?

Some Type 2s don't produce enough insulin because their pancreas is wearing out. However, the majority do produce enough, it just doesn't work properly because of insulin resistance. It can't push the glucose into the cells for energy. Two things then happen. The glucose stays in the blood stream, and the pancreas keeps producing more and more insulin in a frantic effort to clear the glucose, but is unsuccessful, so we also end up with too much insulin floating about - and this in turn causes more insulin resistance and weight gain.

The best test to check if we have too much insulin is a fasting insulin test. Thuis is not done routinely on the NHS. We can have it done privately. @bulkbiker and @CherryAA and one or two others have done this recently. I am still thinking about it.

I can't answer your question about mushrooms - I wish I could because they are a staple food for me.

 

[CherryAA]

If you go to the research paper , press table 1, a list of foods should appear ( 122 ) mainly processed foods, the list looks like it goes to the GI and stops. At the top on the right is a little arrow, if you press that then the list opens out to give the FII as well.

Aunt Jemima waffle mix - achieves the dubious distinction of having an FII of 110 compared to pure glucose at 100, jelly beans 117 special K 86, low fat vanilla ice- cream 69,skimmed milk 60 Avocado 4, , olive oil 3. butter 2.
it is striking that most of the American foods are higher than similar Australian foods which I assume is connected to what oils they use to cook things in.

 

[ickihun]

I have my own version of insulin index. Determined from eating to my meter on the same amount of insulin per meal.
Hence I sometimes have to vary my insulin if I eat something which produces more insulin.
Ultimately thou, for me its more to do with what happens once my insulin is produced. Eg. Exercise or sleep, stress or shift work.
Not as simply as just food for me. Just a portion of management.
Those with no dietary control should heavily concentrate on getting their diet right. However after that it's influencing resistance, for me.
Having enough insulin is important for metabolism thou. Regardless of how resistant we are.
Too many carbs influences my thyroid tsh level, fatty liver and pcos..
Not the same for too much insulin floating around wild. Not travelling through its pathway correctly.
The libra scales comes to mind. Insulin and glucose balance.
Not enough insulin for glucose for energy results in a lack of energy. Ring any bells?
Its getting the balance right for your body's needs.

Not eliminating insulin to none or not enough.
Just as damaging as too much, don't you think?

 

[Fleegle]

Not really.. insulin resistance means we are producing what should be enough but our bodies don't respond well enough to it.
So eating less often and then eating food that don't spike insulin (LCHF) leads to regaining sensitivity to insulin. That's why I'm not an ND fan. The shakes and meal 3-4 times a day spikes insulin too often. but we've had that discussion a few times already.

No desire at all to re-open the shake debate.

It is interesting though to find out if you are resistant or producing too much.
The ND data shows that those on the study were producing hardly any insulin, no first phase hardly at all.

I wonder how they weeded out the people from the study group who had IR instead because clearly producing more insulin if they were all producing enough would have failed the experiment. Unless something else in the ND causes IR to wane.

 

[Fleegle]

Some Type 2s don't produce enough insulin because their pancreas is wearing out. However, the majority do produce enough, it just doesn't work properly because of insulin resistance. It can't push the glucose into the cells for energy. Two things then happen. The glucose stays in the blood stream, and the pancreas keeps producing more and more insulin in a frantic effort to clear the glucose, but is unsuccessful, so we also end up with too much insulin floating about - and this in turn causes more insulin resistance and weight gain.

The best test to check if we have too much insulin is a fasting insulin test. Thuis is not done routinely on the NHS. We can have it done privately. @bulkbiker and @CherryAA and one or two others have done this recently. I am still thinking about it.

I can't answer your question about mushrooms - I wish I could because they are a staple food for me.

Interesting.
The theory then is that although every food spikes our BG differently, insulin is predictable and stable?

 

[CherryAA]

I don't really understand the insulin index so if someone could she some light it would be appreciated.

I have just about got my head around BG. Taking mushrooms as an example with virtually no carbs - why does it then take a lot of insulin? In general do we not want to eat foods that cause low BG but do produce insulin - because for type 2's at least generally they are not producing enough.

Is there any data that says you have too much insulin - other than the c test?

Generally speaking people with diabetes will produce way too much insulin, just that like an alcoholic needs ever more alcohol, so does a diabetic need more insulin to do the same job. Eventually we are producing so much insulin that the system explodes and we can't produce anymore.

The kraft curves show this happening very clearly, as it gradually takes longer for the insulin to work. Most of us will be diagnosed somewhere along the 2-4 chain depending on how the symptoms manifest.
At stage 4, there are massive amounts of insulin circulating ,, it is only at stage 5 that the insulin has gone.

http://meridianvalleylab.com/Kraft-prediabetes-profile-patterns-overview

 

[Lamont D]

@Lamont D
Am I being thick? (highly likely) do you mean the insulin index for food or our own insulin levels?

Don't get too excited, it's a food index, to see how insulin can be triggered by how the insulin reacts to the glucose we derive from food.

And you are definitely not thick!

Just a little odd!

Nearly as weird as me!

 

[ickihun]

No desire at all to re-open the shake debate.

It is interesting though to find out if you are resistant or producing too much.
The ND data shows that those on the study were producing hardly any insulin, no first phase hardly at all.

I wonder how they weeded out the people from the study group who had IR instead because clearly producing more insulin if they were all producing enough would have failed the experiment. Unless something else in the ND causes IR to wane.

You can have no phase one insulin and have insulin resistance, like me.
I'm on basal for my phase one support with a fast acting insulin. Hoping to reduce basal and no fast acting after bariatric surgery. Just metformin for other endocrology problems (e.g Pcos).
We are all different thou.

 

[Lamont D]

OMG.
Think I've started something that needs clarifying.

I am aware that there is a list, (because I've seen one, somewhere on here) that lists how food creates insulin.
My reason is so those with symptoms of hypoglycaemia can see for themselves how creating more insulin on top of the hyperinsulinaemia and high circulating insulin would be advised to stay away from certain foods.

As well as helping to get their blood glucose levels down!

I am overwhelmingly thankful to all you on this forum who have answered.

I am learning so much about how insulin is the contributory factor in so many ways in metabolic conditions. And of course how to treat the bloody thing!

 

[Mr_Pot]

So, as a diet controlled Type 2 how am I supposed to use this index?

 

[Fleegle]

Generally speaking people with diabetes will produce way too much insulin, just that like an alcoholic needs ever more alcohol, so does a diabetic need more insulin to do the same job. Eventually we are producing so much insulin that the system explodes and we can't produce anymore.

The kraft curves show this happening very clearly, as it gradually takes longer for the insulin to work. Most of us will be diagnosed somewhere along the 2-4 chain depending on how the symptoms manifest.
At stage 4, there are massive amounts of insulin circulating ,, it is only at stage 5 that the insulin has gone.

http://meridianvalleylab.com/Kraft-prediabetes-profile-patterns-overview

So I ask again. Did the ND reject anyone that had IR. Because they "reversed" (and I know that will be controversial) through producing more Insulin. I am really confused now.

I do understand the concepts and issues of too much insulin.
But I would like to see a lot more science (and I haven't seen it does not mean it doesn't exist - I have never seen the white house either) that shows a study of people with T2 producing way too much insulin and reversing through producing less. That would be interesting and directly in conflict with the very principles of the ND - I think?

 

[CoastGirl]

Maybe I am being a little dim here but how do you estimate which kraft curve you fall into? Is it based on your own bg readings after fasting and then eating to see how you respond? I would say I am Pattern IIIB but my levels don't go anywhere near that high. My peak is normally around 6.5-7 at around 2 hours but can take up to 3 or 4 hours to drop back down.

 

[Bluetit1802]

Maybe I am being a little dim here but how do you estimate which kraft curve you fall into? Is it based on your own bg readings after fasting and then eating to see how you respond? I would say I am Pattern IIIB but my levels don't go anywhere near that high. My peak is normally around 6.5-7 at around 2 hours but can take up to 3 or 4 hours to drop back down.

I think it is after taking an OGGT rather than your personal reactions to normal foods, as this depends entirely on what you eat. With the OGTT you start from a fast and drink 75grams of pure glucose, so everyone starts on a level playing field. If you haven't done an OGGT I don't think you can compare it to yourself.

 

[CoastGirl]

I think it is after taking an OGGT rather than your personal reactions to normal foods, as this depends entirely on what you eat. With the OGTT you start from a fast and drink 75grams of pure glucose, so everyone starts on a level playing field. If you haven't done an OGGT I don't think you can compare it to yourself.

Ok thanks @Bluetit1802, that would make a lot of sense ............ as I said, just being dim!!

 

[Bluetit1802]

Ok thanks @Bluetit1802, that would make a lot of sense ............ as I said, just being dim!!

Not at all dim because you asked something you didn't know and wasn't clear from the posts. It would have been dim not to have asked.

 

[CherryAA]

So, as a diet controlled Type 2 how am I supposed to use this index?

In practical terms, the food insulin index pretty much accords with the foods list of a ketogenic diet, or an LC HF diet where the FII really comes into its own is :

It shows that processed food create a bigger insulin load than real foods even when the same foods are involved - through I assume the type of oils the food is cooked in - which is less releant if you have already stopped eating them, but goes someway to explaining why they are such a problem and

b) if you find that you are having trouble controlling bloods sugars on a standard LCHF diet, if you look to the FII , you might find that some foods ( eg cheeses ) are causing more problems than you might otherwise suspset because they are higher on the FII index than the Glycaemic index.

hope that helps