Living below the line 2014

[Spiker]

We don't have billions. That figure is just a knee jerk reaction.

The population of the planet is just over 6 billion and for 'billions' to have T2, ie at least 2 billion, would mean that over 30% of the world population had it. This is not the case at all.

Who said "billions have T2"?

 

[Yorksman]

It's not sustainable at these population levels. I'm not saying it is sustainable. I'm saying that agriculture enables expansion beyond the population levels sustainable by affluent hunter gatherers, with a trade off in individual health. This then can't be reversed other than by mass die-offs.

Hunter gather populations are not immune from population crashes. The mesolithic in europe is characterised by a marked decline in populations, more marked than those at the end of the palaeolithic. Population longevity now is double that of the mesolithic.

More people living longer looks very much like evolutionary success to me however much you would like to think otherwise.

Regarding mass die offs, that's quite normal. The main regulators are disease, famine and conflict with the food supply being the most important. You can see this in 3 population curves below. The trend, since the introduction of agriculture has been for increasing populations. T2 Diabetes is only a recent phenomenon.

 

[catherinecherub]

Who said "billions have T2"?

These are the figures.
An estimate for 2035 is 592 million.

http://www.idf.org/diabetesatlas

 

[Spiker]

More people living longer looks very much like evolutionary success to me however much you would like to think otherwise.

You keep attributing things to me that I didn't say.

 

[Brunneria]

Hunter gather populations are not immune from population crashes....View attachment 4241

Interesting figures and clearly you have access to data on the Mesolithic, but I am puzzled as to why you think that data is relevant in this context.

 

[izzzi]

Our long life is not cost saving.It is nutritional food,health and hygiene.(read it somewhere)
I would not be seen dead in Aldi or lidel , well not until I have enough points at Tesco for my 20p of a litre of fuel .
Got to be fair it is a pain in the neck trying to get the best deal when the big boys are on to us.
Additives and chemicals in our foods are more costly than we think in many ways.
The farmers used to be our friends and neighbours. Now the only friend you can trust is the allotment and this forum of coarse.

 

[donnellysdogs]

We don't have billions. That figure is just a knee jerk reaction.

The population of the planet is just over 6 billion and for 'billions' to have T2, ie at least 2 billion, would mean that over 30% of the world population had it. This is not the case at all.

T2 rates have been increasing in industrialised nations and only in the past few generations. It is likely caused by a change in patterns of food processing and consumption. We did not see comparable rates of diabetes in the 19th century for example even though far less meat and more grains were consumed.

So agree. I think its just down to anything processed....and that current old agees population living longer is down to meds...and previous rationing.. They dont binge so much on **** food


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[Yorksman]

Who said "billions have T2"?

OK you have a little wriggle room because of your inclusion of the word 'threatened'.

Same thing though, what studies predict a rise to above 30% of T2. On what do you base your billions threatened? Is there any actual data behind it or is it just prejudice?

 

[Yorksman]

Interesting figures and clearly you have access to data on the Mesolithic, but I am puzzled as to why you think that data is relevant in this context.

The Palaeolithic and Mesolithic populations in Europe are hunter gatherer populations, the Neolithic is the onset of farming, the most fundamental change in food source in human history. But, the graph shows that fluctuations in populations occur all the time. T2 diabetes plays little or no part in this.

 

[Spiker]

Is there any actual data behind it or is it just prejudice?

And I thought I was the grumpy one!

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[Brunneria]

Yup, as I say, interesting facts. But your facts don't link up with the discussion directly preceding them. And while I agree that populations fluctuate all the time, for many reasons, why is that relevant?

Besides, you cannot prove a negative.

 

[Spiker]

On what do you base your billions threatened?

Following eg Prof Frank Hu, I see T2D as a disease of culture that arises from a combination of diet type and caloric excess. I believe the evidence is clear that T2D goes epidemic whenever these conditions arise. Given the spread of affluence in the world, with Asia being the current high growth area, I see no reason why the US pattern of T2D would not be nearly global within twenty years. A lot hinges of course on continued patterns of economic growth. But it is an unattractive future for aĺl if growth and health are mutually exclusive. Hopefully reason will prevail and lifestyles will change for the better. But only if the rest of the world can avoid the American trajectory. So far Western Europe has failed to do so, and China is now hurtling down the same path.

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[Spiker]

OK you have a little wriggle room because of your inclusion of the word 'threatened'.

I have infinite "wiggle room" because you have completely misinterpreted my point. You are having an argument against what you imagined I said, what you imagined I think, and what you imagine my biases are; so in effect you are having an argument with yourself. You don't need any help or input from us. Pray continue!

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[Kat100]

It is interesting, how we all manage our budgets and how we plan , it is a great topic thread , eg money saving tips etc....there is always something to learn ....and something to make you think ......x

 

[Scandichic]

This is of course why we have bothered to eat grains at all - the planet simply can't support the current population if you are going to eat only meat.

Alex, LCHF is not about just eating meat. If you look on www.dietdoctor.com then you might have a better idea of the typical foods which people who follow an LCHF diet eat.

 

[Yorksman]

Given the spread of affluence in the world, with Asia being the current high growth area, I see no reason why the US pattern of T2D would not be nearly global within twenty years.

Well currently 18.8 million have diagnosed diabetes in the USA and 7 million are estimated to have undiagnosed diabetes in the USA. That equates to 25.8 million or 8.3% of the population. If the global pattern were to reflect the USA figures, you'd end up with just over 520 million, considerably fewer than your 'billions'.

 

[noblehead]

Whilst I think I could manage the challenge for 5 days,, the people that the challenge is highlighting are doing this all day, every day. They have no store cupboards, no excess of toiletries, no spices and herbs, some have no cooking facilities, no access to clean water, absolutely nothing.

We couldn't keep the challenge up. Imagine no cup of tea/coffee when you wake up, no shower gel, no shower, the same drudgery every day of your life, food shortages if crops fail and no solution to improve matters..

Doesn't bare thinking about, makes you grateful for what we do have.

 

[Brunneria]

Doesn't bare thinking about, makes you grateful for what we do have.

Very, very grateful.

 

[Avocado Sevenfold]

Whilst I think I could manage the challenge for 5 days,, the people that the challenge is highlighting are doing this all day, every day...

I agree. People who have no choice but to live in poverty also have the psychological stress of not not knowing when or if it will end. No offence to people who do the challenge, but to me it seems like closing your eyes to imagine what it must be like to be blind.

 

[Yorksman]

I have infinite "wiggle room" because you have completely misinterpreted my point. You are having an argument against what you imagined I said, what you imagined I think, and what you imagine my biases are; so in effect you are having an argument with yourself.

To the contrary, I partially agreed with your point which I quoted:

Or to put it another way, when we discovered grains it allowed our populations to expand at the expense of their health. Agrarian societies have worse health than hunter gatherer and pastoralist societies - this can be seen clearly from skeletal analysis.

I only partially agreed with it because most studies compare the health of the Kalahari Dobe !Kung with early neolithic but comparisons fail to account for selective evolutionary advantages since the onset of farming and, as the reference I provided shows, the !Kung " are unlikely to serve as the ideal models of that ancient way of life."

Life expectancy of the Kalahari Bushmen is 40 - 50, much less than modern agrarian societies so I cannot agree with your statement above.

You then embarked on making sensationalist posts about billions of people threatened by type 2 diabetes and mass die-offs.

Well there have been mass die offs before the onset of agriculture so that concept has nothing to do with grain based agriculture and the mass die offs since the onset of the neolithic have been due to war, famine and diseases other than diabetes so it doesn't appear to be a factor in agrarian societies either.

I doubt very much that the hunter gatherer vs. agrarian debate contributes anything to the understanding of the increase in type 2 diabetes and believe that this is more strongly routed in over indulgence of processed foods and increased sedentary lifestyles.