lchf diet not working?

[evopilot]

hi everyone,

i was diagnosed with diabetes in 2004 i was severe DKA, at first doctors thought i was a type 2 (bit over weight) then they said type 1 and now they tell me type 1.5, my control over the years has not been very good, i go up and down big time, for example, a single piece of bread (doesnt matter which type) can send me up to 25 and i get hypos down to 1.6, after that the meter reads LO.

after watching some lectures from Dr Jason Fung i tought i would try this diet to see if it can help me, at first it didnt do anything but now after a few weeks it seems my blood sugars are more stable, ie: no hypos in weeks and no "real" hypers, but my blood sugar on average is still between 9.5 and 14 (good for me though).

is it supposed to be like this? will i ever get normal blood sugars or A1c? my A1c last year was 13.4 and my latest a few months ago was 11.4.

do the sugars come down gradually over months? or am i just too wrecked?

im not over weight, i am 5'11 80kg bmi i think is 24

i am mainly eating salads, butter, bacon, eggs and meat, also after i excersize my sugar goes flying high.

thanks

 

[jack412]

Hi and welcome, have a read around the forum and ask lots of questions

this will give you a bit of reading
This is what I did and what I would do, I'm a pleb and not a DR but these 4 sites helped me

it's common for exercise to bump up BG, your liver dumps.

by the look of it you are doing a LC diet, he is atkins based and is big on one day fasts from what I saw.
have you counted how many carbs a day you eat? this free prog helped me
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/
a lot do this diet too, what I did was cut all grain, grain product, potato and sugary stuff, have a read and watch the video
http://www.dietdoctor.com/lchf
are you able to stick to the diet or do the carbs win sometimes
http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/lowcarbliving/a/Food-Cravings.htm

do you take metformin
what other meds or insulin are you on?

If you are very low carb already, I think you need more meds than you are on for the time being, to get your BG into normal range for your body to work better, has the dr suggested this?
as any insulin resistance subsides and the diet works more, the drugs may be able to be reduced

this site is good too
http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/14045524.php

 

[LittleGreyCat]

Good news is your numbers are improving.

Have you had a look at the Newcastle Study?
This includes a suggestion that everyone has their personal 'body fat threshold' above which BG control can go wrong.
This applies to people of 'normal' weight and one suggestion is that it is better to have your weight in the middle of the 'normal' range.
I am working on this at the moment and my BG control may be very slowly improving.
Fasting reading have been down the last few days but I don't know yet if this will be stable long term.

If your BG goes up a lot after exercise this may be your liver dumping stored glucose into your blood, but then being 'resistant' to the insulin telling it to stop dumping once your BG had gone up.
I think I have this but in a much more minor way - I can see a rise in BG after quite a long session of exercise.

I am hoping that if I strip the fat from my liver and pancreas, and from around my internal organs, that my insulin resistance will go away (or at least be less of an issue).
(How do you describe that? If you say resistance has improved it sounds as though you have more!)

Your BMI looks to be around 24.5 which is scraping the top edge of a 'normal' BMI so you may (no promises) see better numbers if you lose some weight.
Eating less may also improve your numbers.

Your brief description of your diet looks to be low cab but more high protein than high fat.
It might be worth taking another look at LCHF and trying to eliminate some of the protein and bump up the fats.

Best of luck

LGC

 

[diamondnostril]

Hi evopilot,

I mostly stuck to a low-carb diet for years, getting OK but not brilliant results. HbA1c was generally OK but I never felt that I had blood-sugars completely under MY control. I realised eventually that my Protein intake was too high . . . I was overdoing the meat and eggs.

My body seems to be extremely sensitive to both Carbs and Protein. If I take Carbs in anything other than tiny quantities my blood-sugar gets impossible to control. Same, to a lesser extent, with taking in too much Protein.

After getting into the LCHF/Ketogenic lifestyle and reading up on it, I started to follow the guideline to take no more than 1g Protein per day for each Kilo of ideal body weight. (For me this means a limit of about 68g Protein per day).

Of course if one limits both Carbs and Protein then the only thing left is to make up the rest with Fat. Yum Yum

After making this change the LCHF really started to have its effects on me. Completely stabilized blood-sugars, dawn phenomenon disappeared, HbA1c went from "OK" down into the non-diabetic range.

If your body is also very sensitive to Protein then perhaps reducing Protein intake may really help to get the benefits of LCHF. Protein gets converted to Glucose in the body, via Gluconeogenesis, when there is an excess.

Apologies in advance if this suggestion is not applicable to you!

Regards,
Antony

 

[evopilot]

Hi and welcome, have a read around the forum and ask lots of questions

this will give you a bit of reading
This is what I did and what I would do, I'm a pleb and not a DR but these 4 sites helped me

it's common for exercise to bump up BG, your liver dumps.

by the look of it you are doing a LC diet, he is atkins based and is big on one day fasts from what I saw.
have you counted how many carbs a day you eat? this free prog helped me
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/
a lot do this diet too, what I did was cut all grain, grain product, potato and sugary stuff, have a read and watch the video
http://www.dietdoctor.com/lchf
are you able to stick to the diet or do the carbs win sometimes
http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/lowcarbliving/a/Food-Cravings.htm

do you take metformin
what other meds or insulin are you on?

If you are very low carb already, I think you need more meds than you are on for the time being, to get your BG into normal range for your body to work better, has the dr suggested this?
as any insulin resistance subsides and the diet works more, the drugs may be able to be reduced

this site is good too
http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/14045524.php

Hi, im eating plenty of cheese a butter, isnt that high fat? what else should i eat?

i dont count carbs because i wouldnt know how, but im not (and havnt for a month) eating any bread, cereal, oats flour, rice pasta etc

i am only on insulin, i was using 100 units a day now im using about 40 on this diet, i havnt told my doctor what im doing, hes very negative about diabetes and says i have brittle diabetes and ill never get off insulin

 

[evopilot]

Good news is your numbers are improving.

Have you had a look at the Newcastle Study?
This includes a suggestion that everyone has their personal 'body fat threshold' above which BG control can go wrong.
This applies to people of 'normal' weight and one suggestion is that it is better to have your weight in the middle of the 'normal' range.
I am working on this at the moment and my BG control may be very slowly improving.
Fasting reading have been down the last few days but I don't know yet if this will be stable long term.

If your BG goes up a lot after exercise this may be your liver dumping stored glucose into your blood, but then being 'resistant' to the insulin telling it to stop dumping once your BG had gone up.
I think I have this but in a much more minor way - I can see a rise in BG after quite a long session of exercise.

I am hoping that if I strip the fat from my liver and pancreas, and from around my internal organs, that my insulin resistance will go away (or at least be less of an issue).
(How do you describe that? If you say resistance has improved it sounds as though you have more!)

Your BMI looks to be around 24.5 which is scraping the top edge of a 'normal' BMI so you may (no promises) see better numbers if you lose some weight.
Eating less may also improve your numbers.

Your brief description of your diet looks to be low cab but more high protein than high fat.
It might be worth taking another look at LCHF and trying to eliminate some of the protein and bump up the fats.

Best of luck

LGC

hi, i have not seen the study.

i think you might be right about the liver, i have fasted 3 times in the last week to, 24 hour fasts, and when i fast i still take my insulin and my sugar still goes from 10 to 13

 

[evopilot]

Hi evopilot,

I mostly stuck to a low-carb diet for years, getting OK but not brilliant results. HbA1c was generally OK but I never felt that I had blood-sugars completely under MY control. I realised eventually that my Protein intake was too high . . . I was overdoing the meat and eggs.

My body seems to be extremely sensitive to both Carbs and Protein. If I take Carbs in anything other than tiny quantities my blood-sugar gets impossible to control. Same, to a lesser extent, with taking in too much Protein.

After getting into the LCHF/Ketogenic lifestyle and reading up on it, I started to follow the guideline to take no more than 1g Protein per day for each Kilo of ideal body weight. (For me this means a limit of about 68g Protein per day).

Of course if one limits both Carbs and Protein then the only thing left is to make up the rest with Fat. Yum Yum

After making this change the LCHF really started to have its effects on me. Completely stabilized blood-sugars, dawn phenomenon disappeared, HbA1c went from "OK" down into the non-diabetic range.

If your body is also very sensitive to Protein then perhaps reducing Protein intake may really help to get the benefits of LCHF. Protein gets converted to Glucose in the body, via Gluconeogenesis, when there is an excess.

Apologies in advance if this suggestion is not applicable to you!

Regards,
Antony

can you suggest some fatty foods i should eat? thanks

 

[Totto]

Hi, im eating plenty of cheese a butter, isnt that high fat? what else should i eat?

i dont count carbs because i wouldnt know how, but im not (and havnt for a month) eating any bread, cereal, oats flour, rice pasta etc

i am only on insulin, i was using 100 units a day now im using about 40 on this diet, i havnt told my doctor what im doing, hes very negative about diabetes and says i have brittle diabetes and ill never get off insulin

Butter and cheese are both fine, but cheese is rich in protein. Olive oil, coconut oil, duck fat, goose fat and lard are other good fat sources. Milk contains a surprising amount of sugar so best avoided. Double cream is usually fine.

Egg white is pure protein.

Many roots are high in carbs, as potatoes, parsnip, beet root and carrots. Go easy on them if you have them at all.

I dont know anything about insulin, but possibly you have cut down too far? Someone more knowledgeable will come along I hope to help you with this. And if you are LADA then yes, you probably have to be on insulin always.

Remember, you are doing good very on LCHF so keep it up!

 

[evopilot]

thanks totto, i will not eat the egg whites anymore then (been eating tons of eggs), i have been eating cream in coffee to, not sure if i can eat straight animal fat though.

this study says t1 and t1 can regenerate beta cells
http://news.vanderbilt.edu/2014/03/diabetes-researchers-track-cells-ability-to-regenerate/

i think t1 is just caused by inflammation in most cases, i want to get off insulin, its been proven that complications among people on insulin are always the same regardless of whether its well controlled or not.

 

[jack412]

Hi, im eating plenty of cheese a butter, isnt that high fat? what else should i eat?

i dont count carbs because i wouldnt know how, but im not (and havnt for a month) eating any bread, cereal, oats flour, rice pasta etc

i am only on insulin, i was using 100 units a day now im using about 40 on this diet, i havnt told my doctor what im doing, hes very negative about diabetes and says i have brittle diabetes and ill never get off insulin

if you have been LC for a month it's early days and you are doing very well. there has been an improvement.

it may be true that you never get off insulin, but you have shown yourself you can reduce the dose with lower carbs, have you cut it too much, or do you hypo trying to get the BG lower?
if it was me I'd be on metformin too, I'd ask for 1500-2000 metformin for lower BG of a morning, insulin resistance and the other good stuff it does for T2/1.5

you don't need to know carbs, you enter your food into my fitness pal and it does it for you, it's a good program and can be tweeked

 

[evopilot]

it seems since going on the diet i cant get it very low, its much more stable though, i can probably cause a hypo by overdosing though.

i started keeping a log a few days ago (when i can), i tried to drop insulin way off with mixed results

17/6/14: wake/fasting:9.2 / midday 12.2 / 140pm 12.9 / 434 pm 11.6 (before dinner, end fast) / 611pm 14.1 (after dinner) / 706pm 14.3 (5 units) / 950pm 12.2 (large fruit salad) / 1050pm 17.6 / 1140pm 17.4 (5 units) / 1230am 15.9 / 130am 13.1

18/6/14 845am wake 7.1 / before lunch 1235pm 12.4 / 115pm 14.2 / 430pm 17.4 (5 units) / 540pm 14.1 (before dinner) / 630pm 15.2 (coffee test 1h) / 730pm 13.1 / 830pm 13.1 (5 units) / 938pm 15.8 (start 24h fast) / 1230am 15.4 (3 units) / 140am 11.9

19/6/14 9am 8.9 (fast) / 1015 10.8 / 138pm 10.2 / 245pm 12.4 (3 units) / 345pm 12.1 / 410pm 11.5 (end fast) / 640pm (apple, bannans+dinner+5 units) / 7pm 18.3 / 845pm 20.8 (10 units) / 1120pm 23.5 ( (12 units) / 2am 19.4

20/6/14 1130am 13.6 (10 units) / 140pm 15.1 (10 units) / 330pm (1h after food) 13.1 / 530pm 13.9 (15 units) / 720pm 11.1 (after dinner) / 820pm 10.1 / 1015pm 11.2 / 1230am 12.7 (5 units)

21/6/14 930am 13.1 (12 units) / 930pm (fast start)

22/6/14 1130am 10.1 / 1230pm 12.3 (7 units) / 4pm 9.8 / 510pm 10.9 (end fast 10 units) / 7pm 10.1 / 10pm (10 units) 9.9 / 1040pm (dinner) / 2am 12.7 (10 units) /

23/6/14 11am 10.6 / 1155am (12 units) / 12pm 12.9 / 2pm 10.6 / 330pm 10.9 / 430pm 16.8 (15 units) / 550pm 17.5 (after fruit) / 650pm 14.9 (15 units, start fast) /

 

[phoenix]

Sadly, that particular study is just looking at potential pathways for regeneration in mice that have been made diabetic , these were 'T2 ' mice. This isn't necessarily applicable to T1 or T1.5 (LADA) which are caused by autoimmune destruction of the beta cells.
It actually already known that people still have a few working beta cells after 50+ years with T1. It is entirely possible that some new ones have been created in the years since diagnosis, the problem is to stop them being killed off. And have a look at some of the Joslin medalists on you tube, they show that it is perfectly possible to be taking insulin for 50, 60, 70 and 80 years with no complications.
Good control though is important , there are no guarantees but lower HbA1cs do reduce risk considerably.

To get good control on insulin you really do need to count of the carbs you are eating. If you are eating a lower carb diet rather than a conventionally balanced diet you may also need to take account of protein and fat.
The insulin you take needs to be adjusted accordingly. How this is done depends upon the type of insulin you take. If you are averaging levels above 9 then this isn't the case.
If you are taking a mixed insulin that means you may get better results if you have truly consistent meal patterns.
If you take a basal insulin and a rapid insulin you have more flexibility .
What insulins are you using?

(edit I was just about to post, you've put in some details but it still isn't clear what type of insulin you are using nor what you use to decide your insulin dose (and when you take it), .You also are fasting which complicates matters considerably. As you have found we need basal insulin as well as mealtime insulin ie insulin that slows the release of glucose from the liver and also enables it to be used by the cells. I think perhaps you are using a mixed insulin but am not sure )

 

[jack412]

phoenix, will be able to help you with your insulin dosing stuff...that's very good data, the main thing is to get your BG into a good range, everything is secondary to that.
first I would stop the fasting diet and have 3 low carb meals a day.
that fruit salad is knocking you around, I would drop that until you get your insulin or BG right

 

[diamondnostril]

can you suggest some fatty foods i should eat? thanks

Of course everyone's plan will be different depending on preferences and lifestyle and situation etc etc, but I can tell you what has worked for me . . .

For meat I now stick to Duck, Pork (especially Pork-Belly), Lamb, high-quality pork sausages, good quality bacon. I now steer clear of chicken and turkey and beef because the Fat/Protein ratio is not what I want.

I don't have any problem with eating eggs, but I don't eat so many of them. In former times I would have a 6-egg Omelette with meat/cheese in it; nowadays I have a 3-egg Omelette with more duck/bacon, cooked with lots of oil, so that the Fat/Protein ratio is better for me.

I cook everything with a lot of oil, and I put Coconut Oil in my coffees to bump up my Fat intake.

I recently bought a meat-grinder and have been experimenting with that. Been making lovely duck-burgers.

These changes definitely increased my grocery bill, but I decided that this is a worthwhile investment rather than just additional cost.

I bet there's loads more hints and tips out there for LCHF lifestyle.

i want to get off insulin, its been proven that complications among people on insulin are always the same regardless of whether its well controlled or not.

I don't agree at all with your statement here. I currently manage to keep my blood-sugars very stable and my HbA1c in the non-diabetic range. As long as this is the case, I can reasonably expect to not create any new diabetic complications in my body. I think Dr. Richard K. Bernstein is living proof of this!

But I do agree that in general, the less Insulin needed (whether injected or natural) the better for health.

Regards,
Antony

 

[Indy51]

I'm very confused by this thread. Why would a Type 1.5 be trying the Jason Fung fasting diet that as far as I'm aware is designed/recommended specifically for Type 2's wanting to come off/reduce their reliance on medication? I've listened to all of his lectures and read most of the stuff at his site and blog and don't recall ever seeing a recommendation that it be used for Type 1s.

If you want to use a diet that minimises the amount of insulin you're taking to control your risk of complications, I'd suggest reading the 'master', Dr Richard K Bernstein.

 

[Indy51]

i havnt told my doctor what im doing, hes very negative about diabetes and says i have brittle diabetes and ill never get off insulin

Am I the only one who is freaked out by this statement? Someone who admits they have no idea how to carb count is making decisions about their insulin dosing without any input from their doctor? I admit to not knowing all that much about 1.5, but I'm majorly spooked by what the OP is doing.

 

[evopilot]

Sadly, that particular study is just looking at potential pathways for regeneration in mice that have been made diabetic , these were 'T2 ' mice. This isn't necessarily applicable to T1 or T1.5 (LADA) which are caused by autoimmune destruction of the beta cells.
It actually already known that people still have a few working beta cells after 50+ years with T1. It is entirely possible that some new ones have been created in the years since diagnosis, the problem is to stop them being killed off. And have a look at some of the Joslin medalists on you tube, they show that it is perfectly possible to be taking insulin for 50, 60, 70 and 80 years with no complications.
Good control though is important , there are no guarantees but lower HbA1cs do reduce risk considerably.

To get good control on insulin you really do need to count of the carbs you are eating. If you are eating a lower carb diet rather than a conventionally balanced diet you may also need to take account of protein and fat.
The insulin you take needs to be adjusted accordingly. How this is done depends upon the type of insulin you take. If you are averaging levels above 9 then this isn't the case.
If you are taking a mixed insulin that means you may get better results if you have truly consistent meal patterns.
If you take a basal insulin and a rapid insulin you have more flexibility .
What insulins are you using?

(edit I was just about to post, you've put in some details but it still isn't clear what type of insulin you are using nor what you use to decide your insulin dose (and when you take it), .You also are fasting which complicates matters considerably. As you have found we need basal insulin as well as mealtime insulin ie insulin that slows the release of glucose from the liver and also enables it to be used by the cells. I think perhaps you are using a mixed insulin but am not sure )

hi, i am using a long acting basel i guess. its 30/70 the same insulin they gave me @ diagnosis. i dont want actrapid or anything because i dont want to inject more, i have too much scar tissue already

 

[evopilot]

I don't agree at all with your statement here. I currently manage to keep my blood-sugars very stable and my HbA1c in the non-diabetic range. As long as this is the case, I can reasonably expect to not create any new diabetic complications in my body. I think Dr. Richard K. Bernstein is living proof of this!

But I do agree that in general, the less Insulin needed (whether injected or natural) the better for health.

Regards,
Antony

this doctor shows studies that say you get omplications regardless because even if your BSL is low your insulin/glucose levels are still too high

 

[evopilot]

I'm very confused by this thread. Why would a Type 1.5 be trying the Jason Fung fasting diet that as far as I'm aware is designed/recommended specifically for Type 2's wanting to come off/reduce their reliance on medication? I've listened to all of his lectures and read most of the stuff at his site and blog and don't recall ever seeing a recommendation that it be used for Type 1s.

If you want to use a diet that minimises the amount of insulin you're taking to control your risk of complications, I'd suggest reading the 'master', Dr Richard K Bernstein.

because its the same principles of DR stapleton, who is a type 1 diabetic and hes down to just 6 units of long acting per day

also Dr fungs patients were apparently on up to 100 units/day

 

[Indy51]

I think the clue is in the title of the Dr Fung video - Type 2 diabetes.

Which you are not, according to your original post.