A Mince Pie Conundrum

[AdamJames]

You may have got very lucky and find you really are an examples of a metabolic body clock reset, but one day of extraordinary events, actions and consumption isn't the best way to drraw too many conclusions.

Well holy heck, it's just got more interesting.

Last night, again because my routine was out, I ended up doing something I normally avoid, and going to bed about an hour after eating carbs. Sure enough my bg was 9.1 when I went to bed (though this was probably near the top of a spike, so it could be worse. A few months ago 9.1. would be a good result even if I hadn't eaten for hours!). And it fell a bit by morning in keeping with how it usually behaves - I woke up with it at 6.9 (a more accurate reading as this was also a 3-measurement average, given it was the start of my normal carb tolerance test).

So the bad: I went to sleep with a poor bg and woke up with a poor bg.

Then the remarkable: I got the best score in my 34 gram carb test I ever have by a mile. At its worst, my bg at 2 hours is 2.8 mmol/l higher than starting. This time it was 0.5 mmol/l higher. Start = 6.9, 2hrs = 7.4.

Not only is the minimal rise remarkable, but it the 2hr reading is less than 7.8, which is what some people say to aim for for safety, even if you'd started much lower. My own goal is to aim for a 2hr reading of 6.2 or less as that seems to be the upper value for what truly non-diabetic people get, so I'm a long way from that.

However, and for once I'm going to be cocksure and make a prediction: so far I've been able to hammer my morning readings down within the space of a day. It requires a lot of effort and I usually do a huge walk after my last food at night, which may not be possible at the moment because everywhere is covered in ice. But I'm going to see what I can do today and tonight, and try to get tomorrows morning reading much lower than today's, which I *think* I'll be able to do. Then I'll take the same carb test again.

I may find that, since part of that effort will involve minimal carb intake today, my tolerance has reduced tomorrow. But either way it's really interesting data. And whatever is happening, my body is not the same thing as it was 3 months ago.

 

[Phoenix55]

Do you think your mother would be willing to send me a couple of mince pies? After reading your post I do not want just any old mince pie to mess with my sugars and be my first mince pie, but I want your mothers! They sound just wonderful, the way you describe it! Do they keep for a few days until they arrive here or will they go stale? Can I revive them in the oven?

Made Christmas Eve and consumed Christmas Day, the occasional survivor consumed on Boxing Day, I have no idea how long they could last in theory - none have ever lasted long enough to go stale. Mine have never matched hers although I have tried. She can not share a recipe either because she cooks by 'feel'.

 

[Phoenix55]

I've just, for political reasons, clicked 'agree' under some recent posts, both those strongly against diabetics eating this sort of food and those in favour within reason.

I do agree with both, and I think both; that's the problem with being human, you can intellectually know for sure that you shouldn't be doing something, but also think that you may get away with it occasionally and it makes the experience of being human more enjoyable while you're doing it.

For me the problem, as so many people on this forum have realised, is that nice-tasting food that's high in carbs seems to be much more addictive than nice tasting LCHF food. I've been on a mince pie bender for 3-4 days now. I have lost 3 stone in 3 months and the overall picture in that time is that my calorie intake, carb intake and exercise levels are all in a radically better place than they were just a few months ago. In 3 months I've had a few lapses of discipline and I always will.

The most guaranteed way for any lapse of discipline to last for more than a day for me seems to be the combination of eating nice-tasting carbs, plus having more of those nice-tasting carbs in the house and easily accessible.

While, as I've posted earlier, I had a surprising result yesterday and found that in spite of about 250g of carbs from mince pies, all it took was about an hour of exercise and my postprandial 2hr readings were surprisingly "okay", the fact is that I've been waking up in the mornings over the last few days with bgs at about 7, instead of around 5 which I'd been managing to achieve before the mince pie fest.

So they have had a measurably negative effect on my overall goals. And they were delicious.

That is the beauty of this forum, the acceptance that different things work for different people. For some total abstention is the only way, others would feel deprived if they did that and ultimately find it unsustainable so the occasional indulgence is the way forward, others still maintain a routine for a few months, have a weekend 'bender' then jump back on the wagon. We are adults making choices that best suit or personalities and situations. Interesting results are just that, showing how we are getting to know our own bodies better because of our regime.
After a stressful few months at work going through the process of re-applying for our jobs with redundancy beckoning at the end for some, and it looks as if I will be in that number, I am just pleased that I have been able to keep a check on my fasting bg and it has dropped back to the usual point around 5 (without any drugs). I feel I can reward myself by the occasional food porn picture and possibly letting the reins slip a little on Christmas Day. Thanks to the OP for starting a fun thread when I needed it.

 

[AdamJames]

going through the process of re-applying for our jobs

I wish you all the best with that. Stressful as hell, for sure.

That is the beauty of this forum

I like it here. It's nice.

Interesting results are just that

What!? I've already started writing my book: "The dead fly diet - cure your diabetes in 3 days!". This is going to be a revolution!

 

[AdamJames]

Fingers crossed for you.

You can uncross them now, but thanks!

Well that's a pity.

I decided to hedge my bets on carbs yesterday. I'd been having about 300g of carbs and 4,000 calories a day during the mince pie fest, so rather than switching right down to low-carb, I had about 140g of carbs and 1,800 calories. 80g of the carbs was just before a fairly big walk up a hill at night.

My before-bed reading was 6.4 so I was hoping I'd get a pretty good reading this morning, but it was 6.1. Not only that but the carb tolerance test got a result that matched the worst result so far.

So I'll hold off writing my Dead Fly Diet book for now!

It's really fascinating how a broken metabolism can suddenly get good at processing carbs if you overload it with carbs, though. I'm guessing what I've just witnessed is a bit like the phenomenon that another member mentioned recently, where, after a big glucose tolerance test, she was better at processing carbs for a while. I've been on one hell of a glucose tolerace test for the last few days!

I wonder what would have happened if I'd carried on with the 4,000 calorie, 300g carb way of eating? I wasn't gaining weight thanks to the exercise. I love experiments and can be a bit reckless in the name of science, but that's not an experiment I'm too comfortable with, given it looks like I'd be spending most nights sleeping with toxic glucose levels as the price to pay for handling carbs better. I might consider it, though, at some point. For now it's back to weight loss and trying to keep the morning bg around 5.

 

[AdamJames]

View attachment 24682 I have a packet of these for Xmas

I went to Tesco last night for that reason alone. Of all the fancy nuts they had, the one thing that was out of stock was those

 

[Boo1979]

I have a suspiscion that my / the bodys reaction to carbs isnt always linear
A week or so back I was experimenting over a few days with a few foods to see how / if my BM responses had changed over the yeears. I found a strange reaction in that brown rice, sharon fruit and kiwi fruit all had much less impact on my sugars in the pre to post prandial BM test and the resulting near doubling of daily carb intake to around 70g seemed to have little effect either. What I did find tho was that for 4 or 5 days afterwards, my sugars were running an average of 1.5 mmol higher than they had been pre test period, even though I was back to my normal lower carb intake. (They are back to normal now)
Could be coincidence but Ive found a similar pattern previously so I wonder if it takes a few days for higher carbs to impact on overall control and then again for that impact to fade

 

[Boo1979]

View attachment 24682 I have a packet of these for Xmas

I got 2 of these
https://www.lidl.co.uk/en/Non-Food-Offers.htm?articleId=7664
1 wasabi and 1 roasted and salted - the Wasabi ones are awesome
sadly my lidl didnt have any of the chilli ones, even sadder the prospect of the initial purchase making it thru to xmas is nil!
Another trip to Lidl is required

 

[paulus1]

I'd been having about 300g of carbs and 4,000 calories a day during the mince pie fest, so rather than switching right down to low-carb, I had about 140g of carbs and 1,800 calories. 80g of the carbs was just before a fairly big walk up a hill at night.

why the silly amounts.

 

[paulus1]

i could cope with an odd mince pie but christmas cake i love. sob

 

[AdamJames]

I'd been having about 300g of carbs and 4,000 calories a day during the mince pie fest, so rather than switching right down to low-carb, I had about 140g of carbs and 1,800 calories. 80g of the carbs was just before a fairly big walk up a hill at night.

why the silly amounts.

Various reasons, mainly addiction and lack of discipline. It started because I've noticed that my ability to keep bgs low by exercising straight after eating seems to have increased markedly. E.g. I could have 4 full-size mince pies, do a 50-minute very fast walk, and my 2 hour postprandial could be firmly in the non-diabetic range. I think that may still be true because it has been for weeks, and I'm hoping it is unrelated to my miserably failed carb tolerance test this morning, in which I didn't move.

I've been trying various "ways of life" for three months; vlcd, low-carb, ultra low carb, and this most recent one started as "eating normally but doing a lot of exercise, targeting most exercise after carbs". It started off pretty good, but I think the lesson is: carbs are addictive.

 

[AdamJames]

I have a suspiscion that my / the bodys reaction to carbs isnt always linear
A week or so back I was experimenting over a few days with a few foods to see how / if my BM responses had changed over the yeears. I found a strange reaction in that brown rice, sharon fruit and kiwi fruit all had much less impact on my sugars in the pre to post prandial BM test and the resulting near doubling of daily carb intake to around 70g seemed to have little effect either. What I did find tho was that for 4 or 5 days afterwards, my sugars were running an average of 1.5 mmol higher than they had been pre test period, even though I was back to my normal lower carb intake. (They are back to normal now)
Could be coincidence but Ive found a similar pattern previously so I wonder if it takes a few days for higher carbs to impact on overall control and then again for that impact to fade

Interesting stuff.

One thing I've noticed after logging things fairly meticulously for 3 months, is a sort of "hysteresis" pattern regarding morning blood sugars. Morning blood sugars seem a good indicator for me as they are my lowest of the day, so they give me a starting point.

For example, if I've had 2 days with great bgs, then let things slip one day, I can get back on track fairly easily. If I'd had a whole week of good bgs and have a slip one day, I can get back on track virtually effortlessly. Likewise, if I've had a few days with high bgs, then put a lot of effort into lowering it in 24 hours, it works, but it has a tendency to creep up again the next day.

I have a mental image of a sort of blood glucose "set point" which my body is trying to regulate to, and if I keep giving it the same message for long enough, it starts aiming for that new level. That's not to say it's doing that, just that it's a mental model which seems to fit the data.

 

[AdamJames]

Lest anyone is disgusted by this thread, being, as it is, a very bad example of what diabetics should be concerning themselves with, I would like to report that I've just got back from the doctor's and my HbA1c has gone down from 92 to 40 in 6 months, and that's after stopping Metformin 3 months ago.

I am taking this business seriously most of the time, honestly.

Now, how to celebrate? I think I'd like a.... Nooooooooooooo!

 

[Guzzler]

Lest anyone is disgusted by this thread, being, as it is, a very bad example of what diabetics should be concerning themselves with, I would like to report that I've just got back from the doctor's and my HbA1c has gone down from 92 to 40 in 6 months, and that's after stopping Metformin 3 months ago.

I am taking this business seriously most of the time, honestly.

Now, how to celebrate? I think I'd like a.... Nooooooooooooo!

Mince Pies are not a matter of life and death. They are much more important than that!

 

[Caz_B]

I read an article once that suggested taking the top off to reduce the carbs x

 

[Guzzler]

I read an article once that suggested taking the top off to reduce the carbs x

I refuse to sit half nudey to eat mine

 

[Caz_B]

I love mince pie and cream...one of my favourites x

 

[paulus1]

.

Various reasons, mainly addiction and lack of discipline. It started because I've noticed that my ability to keep bgs low by exercising straight after eating seems to have increased markedly. E.g. I could have 4 full-size mince pies, do a 50-minute very fast walk, and my 2 hour postprandial could be firmly in the non-diabetic range. I think that may still be true because it has been for weeks, and I'm hoping it is unrelated to my miserably failed carb tolerance test this morning, in which I didn't move.

I've been trying various "ways of life" for three months; vlcd, low-carb, ultra low carb, and this most recent one started as "eating normally but doing a lot of exercise, targeting most exercise after carbs". It started off pretty good, but I think the lesson is: carbs are addictive.

thats very odd. i think it needs discussing with your consultant. on 4k of calories your going to be gaining weight if you were to do it daily not that you would. the carbs should be shooting your bg very high. try it without the walking and see what your readings are. have you had your thyroid tested recently. and you know without saying it cant goon. you will need to switch to hot cross buns post christmas.

 

[AdamJames]

.

thats very odd. i think it needs discussing with your consultant. on 4k of calories your going to be gaining weight if you were to do it daily not that you would. the carbs should be shooting your bg very high. try it without the walking and see what your readings are. have you had your thyroid tested recently. and you know without saying it cant goon. you will need to switch to hot cross buns post christmas.

I think it's fairly well studied and understood that post-food exercising has a significant effect on glucose levels. Perhaps I should explain what I mean by exercise: I'm a big chap even when I'm not fat and can plough through energy pretty quickly when I make my body move. For example, last night's effort to lower my bg involved putting on a heavy rucksack, some crampons and walking up a 400m high hill as fast as I could. It was also covered in snow so I was using crampons and, while not as bad as walking through sand, I could feel the extra effort. The walk lasted for an hour and a half. For me that level of activity is fairly normal; I could probably sustain it on a daily basis.

That amount of carbs and calories is certainly not a great idea for a diabetic, but I suspect it's very normal for someone who does that level of activity. I certainly haven't put on any weight. That's what I've been experimenting with recently: if I eat like a normal person and exercise a lot, what happens? It seems that the answer is that a) I get addicted to carbs, b) I don't lose or gain weight, and c) My blood glucose levels are generally higher, in spite of the strange phenomenon of the spikes being dealt with more quickly.

I don't think I want to try eating a box of mince pies without exercising: the carb tolerance test I mentioned has told me that all it takes is 34g of carbs without exercise and I get a very high spike!

Oh, God. Hot. Cross. Buns. I *wish* you hadn't said that My taste in food is definitely turning very dead-fly-based recently!

 

[Grumpy ole thing]

I would say it's ok for me, someone with type 1 diabetes, to eat a mince pie if I bolus for it. I haven't had, or even been offered, any mince pies yet. But I will be eating one after a 10k run on the beach next Sunday because it's a Christmas run and you get given a mince pie at the finish line I might have to buy some mince pies for work tomorrow (I couldn't possibly inflict my baking on them and if I get the mini mince pies I saw in the supermarket earlier the carb content is totally managable).

We have mince pies in the office; Monday was so cold I could even eat them (one) "free" yeehaa \o/