Aerobic base training

[ElyDave]

3.7 miles tonight, no carbs or insulin before, avg HR 150, 11:56 min/mile.

pre - 6.8
post - 7.0

15g carbs during.

Good BGs, hurrah!

Well done, you're getting there. Keep it like that adn then watch the pace slowly increase for the same HR, it's amazing to see.

With me I often see a step change like last week where I've suddenly gone from about 5:15-5:30/km to suddely drop to 4:50-5:00/km at the same HR. Loving the ability of the pump to reduce the basal for a couple of hours and avoid the need to taken on extra carbs.

 

[ElyDave]

A nice 40mile/64km on the bike today

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/634021775
Ave HR of 144, at 30km/h.

Temp basal for 1 hr before and 1 hr after. BG not too bad. Slightly reduced breakfast basal, went up to 7.7, then 6.3 pre ride.

During ride, checking every 45mins (I normally start eating at around 30 mins, but experimented today to see what woudl happen)
45min - 3.0 - 20g carbs immediate
90min - 6.1 - 56 g carbs drunk between here and the end
130min (finish) - 5.6. 25g carbs recovery, no bolus
+30min - 7.9, lunch of omlette with cheese and sausages.
+90min - 4.6
+150min - 4.6

 

[ElyDave]

worth a read

http://philmaffetone.com/the-energy-spectrum-part-2

 

[zicksi101]

I said I'd update the thread a few months down the line on progress, so I will.

Bit of an anti-climax I'm afraid, didn't quite work in my case in terms of improving pace. Despite going out fasted, being properly hydrated, low carbing and controlling BGs, MAF test time on the treadmill has actually regressed from 11:06 min/mile to 13:23 min/mile over the last 2 months.

In my case, I think the 180-age thing is genuinely too slow. Everyone says that of course, but I exceed that HR just by walking steadily uphill.

No regrets about trying it though, training slow does work, and definitely helps manage BGs better which is the most important point.

 

[zicksi101]

Time for plan B, then.

Use recent race times and pop into the McMillan calculator to work out what easy training pace should be. Hopefully HR will drop for the same pace.

 

[zicksi101]

Not quite Maffetone, but useful for runners where training down a high HR is a chicken and egg problem. The advice is on page 2:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=134124&page=0

So I'll try 5k pace + 3 mins/mile. At 10:30 min/mile in my case, in relative terms, it's still a lot slower than I was training before, but not so slow that I'd need to stop running altogether.

 

[zicksi101]

So the 10:30 min/miles seems to work too from a BGs point of view, for a 4.5 mile run:

pre - 7.5
post - 8.0

20g carbs during. The less said about HR the better, but was able to talk comfortably and could have went further.

Starting out fasted before runs is making starting on a good BG possible without hypo'ing on the run, that's been the real difference so far.

 

[ElyDave]

good stuf, the HR based training does take some getting used to

My experience, a 10k PB by a decent chunk at the recent New Year's Eve version in less than ideal conditions. All off of three months of base building and only one hard tester session.

http://adventuresofanathleticdiabet...2/the-end-of-2014-3-pbs-2-pumps-and-1100.html

 

[bellabella]

Hi all. Forgive me if this suggestion is ludicrous, but I'm very new to exercising with t1d ( and with t1d in general), but if you're bg's were approaching the 4's at a certain HR, could you increase the speed for a few minutes to induce a liver dump, and then go back to the original HR to go back to using up the glucose at a steadier rate?

 

[zicksi101]

Hi bellabella. Including a short sprint is actually an option, yes, but personally I prefer to just take on fast acting carbs if bg is starting to go low, because the liver dump needs to be replenished later anyway.

So what you would likely see is an initially increasing bg after a short maximal sprint, but it will probably drop later.

However, it's difficult to say for sure, because different people respond to exercise differently, so it's really a case of testing lots and finding what works best for you.

Runsweet is a decent resource to have a look at when starting out. You may find this useful: http://www.runsweet.com/AvoidingHypos.html

 

[ElyDave]

Hi all. Forgive me if this suggestion is ludicrous, but I'm very new to exercising with t1d ( and with t1d in general), but if you're bg's were approaching the 4's at a certain HR, could you increase the speed for a few minutes to induce a liver dump, and then go back to the original HR to go back to using up the glucose at a steadier rate?

Agree with Zicksi, that might be OK if close to home, but not a long term solution.

Take a look at that blog I mention and you'll see the rapid drop after the exercise as the elevated BG moves to the muscles to replenish those and then back into the liver.

 

[zicksi101]

Finally some progress!

Last time I posted I was doing the 10:30 min/miles at an average HR of 170. Now down to 160 HR for the same pace.

Still work to do to get that HR down to Maffetone territory, but moving in the right direction.

So that probably sounds like back to where I was when I started the thread haha! But I consider it progress from where I was in January. I had to abstain from exercise for 6 weeks due to costochondritis before the new year. so it's no wonder the MAF test regressed in hindsight.

 

[zicksi101]

Right, down to 153 HR @ 9:45 min/mi pace. That'll be the HR zone Maffetone suggests.

Nearly at the end the training block now before a few 10k's, but I sense it's more of a starting point than a conclusion.

 

[KarenG]

Just to say that this has been an entirely fascinating thread! I've learnt a lot. Thank you.

 

[hankjam]

I've just gone through this post and a lot of the detail is probably beyond me at the moment. I'm a T2 and noticed @ElyDave and @zicksi101 are both T1's. Would you say there is a difference between the two as to how to manage BG responses to exercise? I do a lot of walking and am thinking of increasing the intensity of my exercise again.... as I gave up 5 a side sometime ago.
Cheers
Hj

 

[zicksi101]

Hi hankjam, I'm honestly not sure what the advice is for type 2's regarding high intensity, anaerobic exercise.

However, as a general rule of thumb:
Anaerobic = BG up
Aerobic = BG drop

I'm type 1 so find that anaerobic exercise (eventually) increases my BG when I don't have insulin on board, that's because my body produces no insulin in response to this type of exercise, but I'm not sure what happens in the type 2 case.

Having said that the split between aerobic/anaerobic exercise isn't always that clear cut - I can occasionally be straddling the threshold between aerobic and anaerobic during a harder run, so in that case can expect both drops and increases in BG!

Aerobic exercise is more predictable - BG drops, end of story.

Perhaps worth widening the net by asking other type 2's in a new thread?

 

[ElyDave]

I would have thought with type 2 with pancretic fucntion aerobic should not be an issue.

Rememember a T1 suffers significant, rapid BG drop because of the circulating insulin. With a fucntioning pancreas what shoudl happen is that you have less circulating insulin as you release it to order, so to speak, which means that when you exercise your pancreas stops producing insulin in response to an initial BG drop and the kicking in of other transport mechanisms.

With less efficient usage of insulin, I could hypothesise that a T2 may have more circulating insulin adn therefore have a bigger initial drop, but I don't know how big. Given high enough exercise duration, >45min-1hr, it should be easy for a T2 to really get into the zone where fat becomes the predominant fuel source without the need to top up with carbs too much.

Anaerobic, with a reduced insulin sensitivity, there may be a similar reaction to a T1 with a post exercise spike, but that shoudl eventually resolve itself as the pancreas responds.

That's just my ramblings whilst trying to apply logic and the biochemistry as I understand it.

 

[hankjam]

I would have thought with type 2 with pancretic fucntion aerobic should not be an issue.

Rememember a T1 suffers significant, rapid BG drop because of the circulating insulin. With a fucntioning pancreas what shoudl happen is that you have less circulating insulin as you release it to order, so to speak, which means that when you exercise your pancreas stops producing insulin in response to an initial BG drop and the kicking in of other transport mechanisms.

With less efficient usage of insulin, I could hypothesise that a T2 may have more circulating insulin adn therefore have a bigger initial drop, but I don't know how big. Given high enough exercise duration, >45min-1hr, it should be easy for a T2 to really get into the zone where fat becomes the predominant fuel source without the need to top up with carbs too much.

Anaerobic, with a reduced insulin sensitivity, there may be a similar reaction to a T1 with a post exercise spike, but that shoudl eventually resolve itself as the pancreas responds.

That's just my ramblings whilst trying to apply logic and the biochemistry as I understand it.

No, it sounds useful to me. Thanks for your response. Hj

 

[zicksi101]

Back from the first 10k race and, given that it was a race (so some adrenaliine involved), the BGs were pretty good:

Starting BG - 9.2
Finishing BG - 8.0

Performance was good too, nearly a minute off 10k PB time and even managed to dip under 50 minutes for the first time.

Just want to say thanks again @ElyDave for taking the time to give some advice on this thread, it is very much appreciated, reassuring to know there are helpful people like yourself around on these forums.

 

[ElyDave]

Back from the first 10k race and, given that it was a race (so some adrenaliine involved), the BGs were pretty good:

Starting BG - 9.2
Finishing BG - 8.0

Performance was good too, nearly a minute off 10k PB time and even managed to dip under 50 minutes for the first time.

Just want to say thanks again @ElyDave for taking the time to give some advice on this thread, it is very much appreciated, reassuring to know there are helpful people like yourself around on these forums.

Ta, glad to help out.