DIABETES 2 INSULIN QUESTION

[pollensa]

Hello,

RE INSULIN V. NO INSULIN IS THE DOUBT QUESTION?

The question wonderment I have I shall raise the same question as within to my own Doctor when I am next in his surgery, in the interim, as I am not on Insulin, hopefully not, but there are many who are, and I would value comments or feedbacks on the question in place.

I reside spain just in avoidance doubt I am speaking here re own situation based in Mallorca which may differ from UK.

Although I am non diabetic range after been lets say "in limbo", informed

• Spain labelled Diabetic, turned out lab typographical error, mind you only found that out after great pressure and perseverance by myself, to have another test. That test resulted two fold situation
• 2nd A1C 6.5% spain again diagnosed labelled diabetic range one test, normal finger results and no symptoms
• 6.5% dignosed labelled New Zealand pre Diabetic under their criteria. Caution, retesting 6 months, change of lifestyle diet
• Currently, change of lifestyle keto low carb intermittent fasting, recent A1Cs have resulted from 6.5% situation to 5.7%, 5.5%, 5.3% and 5.% respectively.

Hopefully I can keep such control. Should it come one day, I am informed Insulin required, my concern would be whether to know which way to go say Yes or No to Insulin this doubt would be personally based on information of one Dr. Fung who informs and explains, and seems so simply clear if this is the case?

"Diabetes Type 2 is too much insulin, compared to Diabetes 1 which has too little Insulin" the two,are not to be confused as one and the same, for example, too little insulin Diabetes 1 requires Insulin, yet Diabetes 2, many are given insulin to a disease state with to much Insulin"

This is a good point yes or no?

THE question,

"Why is Insulin given to us, many/ and thousands, when they have too much Insulin already?"

For this,I will go directly to get a professional answer direct from my Doctor to explain, I am sure there is a simple explanation, but for sure, I am going to ensure I ask to find out.

for this, any feedback or comments out there on the actual Question would be welcoming, just general chat on the topic raised from individuals, to establish if anyone else has actually thought the same re the same or have asked their own doctor the same question, and what was the reply if any?

 

[Jaylee]

The simple layman's answer to your question, @pollensa

An insulin dependant T2 supplements the insulin already produced due to the insulin resistance hindering the effectiveness of what the pancreas produces. This is just my understanding of it.

I'll tag on @ickihun who may help expand on this. (Or totally shoot me down?)

 

[pollensa]

The simple layman's answer to your question, @pollensa

An insulin dependant T2 supplements the insulin already produced due to the insulin resistance hindering the effectiveness of what the pancreas produces. This is just my understanding of it.

I'll tag on @ickihun who may help expand on this. (Or totally shoot me down?)

Thank you very much, as really I am confused or thick one of the two? to crasp what seems simple yet complicated and your reply seems logic too i.e. the way you understand it, whether the info I personally read and understood is correct or not, i.e difference between Diabetes 1 and 2 insulin differences thereto, put doubt "room for thought" about the insulin situation especially Diabetes 2, For this, I will still ask my Doctor basically, why is insulin given for Diabetes 2 patients generally, it seems obvious lack of insulin requires Insulin, but too much insulin? hence curiosity if anyone else had the same view/question gone through their thoughts,could elaborate as yourself, explained why given insulin. Again thank you, don't want you shot down, I will actually ask my Doctor as mentioned to confirm the situation clearly to assist understand it all.

 

[Bluetit1802]

T2 has 2 types.

1. Those that have too much insulin. These people are insulin resistant and will not benefit form injected insulin or drugs that stimulate extra insulin production such as Gliclazide. They already have enough, but it isn't working properly. Adding more just makes the insulin resistance worse.

2. Those that have a failing pancreas that does not provide sufficient insulin. These people do benefit from injected insulin.

Sadly in the UK we do not have insulin tests as a matter of routine on the NHS. If we want one we have to pay privately. This is a shocking state of affairs because many people are put on insulin or Gliclazide etc that then makes their insulin resistance worse than ever.

Before moving to insulin we should be having insulin tests to make sure we actually need it in the long term. (For short term treatment, for example on diagnosis if the levels are sky high, then it is a good plan, but only for the short term)

 

[satindoll]

I am one of the latter in that I need insulin to supplement my failing pancreases meagre production, luckily I am not insulin resistant as my insulin unit needs are very small, but without it I would be in trouble big time.

 

[pollensa]

T2 has 2 types.

1. Those that have too much insulin. These people are insulin resistant and will not benefit form injected insulin or drugs that stimulate extra insulin production such as Gliclazide. They already have enough, but it isn't working properly. Adding more just makes the insulin resistance worse.

2. Those that have a failing pancreas that does not provide sufficient insulin. These people do benefit from injected insulin.

Sadly in the UK we do not have insulin tests as a matter of routine on the NHS. If we want one we have to pay privately. This is a shocking state of affairs because many people are put on insulin or Gliclazide etc that then makes their insulin resistance worse than ever.

Before moving to insulin we should be having insulin tests to make sure we actually need it in the long term. (For short term treatment, for example on diagnosis if the levels are sky high, then it is a good plan, but only for the short term)

Thank you, you have put it all into perspective, as truly I was looking at it not from Doctors point of view just a person with insulin issues to keep eye on control and viewed

1.
diabetes 1 is too little insulin needs insulin this seems logic

2.
Diabetes 2 too much insulin needs reduced not given insulin

My non understanding of this, as 3 friends here in Pollensa, are Diabetes 2 and are been given Insulin, I just could not get my head around this, why are they taking insulin when it seems, insulin needs to be reduced.

This was the crux of my dilemma.

Really you have explained so to the point and clearly. Truly appreciated, and your right re shocking state of affairs not tested for insulin, I am not sure, but I think its the same here to be honest, I am curious to see the different approach view UK and Spain, hence, I want to see what a Spanish doctor explains, I am sure the answer explanation will be interesting, watch this space, I will put a thread with the Answer.

Now I have a clearer picture.

have a nice evening.

 

[Bluetit1802]

My non understanding of this, as 3 friends here in Pollensa, are Diabetes 2 and are been given Insulin, I just could not get my head around this, why are they taking insulin when it seems, insulin needs to be reduced.

I have no idea about Spain, but imagine it is a similar protocol to the UK. Maybe ask your friends if they have had any insulin tests, and if they are insulin resistant? Only if you discuss these matters with them, of course.

There are few ordinary GP doctors that will know this, or if they don they haven't done their research properly.

 

[pollensa]

I have no idea about Spain, but imagine it is a similar protocol to the UK. Maybe ask your friends if they have had any insulin tests, and if they are insulin resistant? Only if you discuss these matters with them, of course.

There are few ordinary GP doctors that will know this, or if they don they haven't done their research properly.

I certainly will do this and ask them if they have had an insulin test. thank you again.

 

[NicoleC1971]

Thank you, you have put it all into perspective, as truly I was looking at it not from Doctors point of view just a person with insulin issues to keep eye on control and viewed

1.
diabetes 1 is too little insulin needs insulin this seems logic

2.
Diabetes 2 too much insulin needs reduced not given insulin

My non understanding of this, as 3 friends here in Pollensa, are Diabetes 2 and are been given Insulin, I just could not get my head around this, why are they taking insulin when it seems, insulin needs to be reduced.

This was the crux of my dilemma.

Really you have explained so to the point and clearly. Truly appreciated, and your right re shocking state of affairs not tested for insulin, I am not sure, but I think its the same here to be honest, I am curious to see the different approach view UK and Spain, hence, I want to see what a Spanish doctor explains, I am sure the answer explanation will be interesting, watch this space, I will put a thread with the Answer.

Now I have a clearer picture.

have a nice evening.

I think your Spainish doctor will emphasise the importance of keepint the blood sugars in normal range either with drugs or insulin. This assumes that having a normal blood sugar is the most important thing however you should know that taking insulin can cause weight gain and does not protect you from most diabetic complications. Nor does it make your condition better and would likely make it worse by causing further insulin resistance.
Jason Fung beleives in low carb diets as the best way but also recommends the SGL1 inbibitgors or other drugs that encourage you to get rid of excess glucose in your urine because these drugs reduce the need for insulin and hence reduce diabetic complications. You can see the brand names for those types of drug on this site.
I mention this because I researched the diabetes drugs which my father was taking (anagliptin) and found it to be not great given all the above considerations. Good luck!

 

[Fenn]

I think your Spainish doctor will emphasise the importance of keepint the blood sugars in normal range either with drugs or insulin. This assumes that having a normal blood sugar is the most important thing however you should know that taking insulin can cause weight gain and does not protect you from most diabetic complications. Nor does it make your condition better and would likely make it worse by causing further insulin resistance.
Jason Fung beleives in low carb diets as the best way but also recommends the SGL1 inbibitgors or other drugs that encourage you to get rid of excess glucose in your urine because these drugs reduce the need for insulin and hence reduce diabetic complications. You can see the brand names for those types of drug on this site.
I mention this because I researched the diabetes drugs which my father was taking (anagliptin) and found it to be not great given all the above considerations. Good luck!

I’m terribly sorry to jump on your thread OP

Nicole, I am confused, did you say the drugs that take the glucose out by way of peeing are good, but then suggested gliptins are bad? I take alogliptin and jardinace, in your opinion, good or bad?

Thankyou

Sorry OP

 

[pollensa]

I think your Spainish doctor will emphasise the importance of keepint the blood sugars in normal range either with drugs or insulin. This assumes that having a normal blood sugar is the most important thing however you should know that taking insulin can cause weight gain and does not protect you from most diabetic complications. Nor does it make your condition better and would likely make it worse by causing further insulin resistance.
Jason Fung beleives in low carb diets as the best way but also recommends the SGL1 inbibitgors or other drugs that encourage you to get rid of excess glucose in your urine because these drugs reduce the need for insulin and hence reduce diabetic complications. You can see the brand names for those types of drug on this site.
I mention this because I researched the diabetes drugs which my father was taking (anagliptin) and found it to be not great given all the above considerations. Good luck!

Thank you for explaining, very interesting, its a case as much info gained surely will help gain better sound knowledge. Yes, as you say Dr. Fung seems to feel low carbs diet, which I am following myself for a year now, weight gain seems to be one of the areas generally docs say try to loose, and again, it seems not so black and white situation as you have explained insulin can cause weight gain, so we have to loose weight, but if one is on insulin trying to loose weight, then put on insulin this will no doubt put back the weight, Oh dear, where do we go...? I think good luck is warranted. Again, thank you kindly for your taking the time to explain appreciated.

 

[Guzzler]

Hyperinsulinaemia is, in my opinion, just as harmful as hyperglycemia. We monitor very easily at home the hyperglycaemic effects of food but we have no access to measuring the insulin responses to the same foods and, as has been said, insulin serum tests are not widely or freely available.

 

[Jenny15]

Thank you, you have put it all into perspective, as truly I was looking at it not from Doctors point of view just a person with insulin issues to keep eye on control and viewed

1.
diabetes 1 is too little insulin needs insulin this seems logic

2.
Diabetes 2 too much insulin needs reduced not given insulin

My non understanding of this, as 3 friends here in Pollensa, are Diabetes 2 and are been given Insulin, I just could not get my head around this, why are they taking insulin when it seems, insulin needs to be reduced.

This was the crux of my dilemma.

Really you have explained so to the point and clearly. Truly appreciated, and your right re shocking state of affairs not tested for insulin, I am not sure, but I think its the same here to be honest, I am curious to see the different approach view UK and Spain, hence, I want to see what a Spanish doctor explains, I am sure the answer explanation will be interesting, watch this space, I will put a thread with the Answer.

Now I have a clearer picture.

have a nice evening.

I would encourage you to only discuss your friends' insulin use with them if you are sure they are comfortable with that.

Insulin for T2 is often misunderstood and we get a lot of unwanted questions and comments from people who do not understand the reasons why we are on insulin.

As @Bluetit1802 explained above, some T2s don't have enough insulin and need extra. It is not true that all T2s have too much insulin. I disagree with Dr Fung on the issue but I do not wish to get into a debate about it here.

 

[Jenny15]

that taking insulin can cause weight gain and does not protect you from most diabetic complications. Nor does it make your condition better and would likely make it worse by causing further insulin resistance.

Using insulin may or not be associated with weight gain because what it does is allow you to move more of the glucose from the blood to the muscles. It is this that causes weight gain, not directly the insulin itself. If the person keeps their carb intake the same or less, it is unlikely they will gain weight because of using insulin.

Insulin does protect from diabetic complications because it is intended to reduce blood sugar. That is why we use it.

If it reduces blood sugar then it does make your condition better.

There is a limit to how much some T2s can reduce their insulin resistance. The only other ways to address high BG is to reduce carbs and/or add insulin. A person might do one or both of these things. If reducing carbs is not enough, then the only remaining option is insulin.

 

[bulkbiker]

to reduce carbs and/or add insulin. A person might do one or both of these things. If reducing carbs is not enough, then the only remaining option is insulin.

Thought there were quite a lot of other medications for Type 2 not just low carb and insulin... It is possible in NZ to get a fasting insulin test? I know it is virtually impossible in the UK with the NHS although available privately. I wondered if it was the same the world over (which would be a shame). For someone starting an insulin regime I imagine it would be a useful bit of info to have.

 

[DCUKMod]

Using insulin may or not be associated with weight gain because what it does is allow you to move more of the glucose from the blood to the muscles. It is this that causes weight gain, not directly the insulin itself. If the person keeps their carb intake the same or less, it is unlikely they will gain weight because of using insulin.

Insulin does protect from diabetic complications because it is intended to reduce blood sugar. That is why we use it.

If it reduces blood sugar then it does make your condition better.

There is a limit to how much some T2s can reduce their insulin resistance. The only other ways to address high BG is to reduce carbs and/or add insulin. A person might do one or both of these things. If reducing carbs is not enough, then the only remaining option is insulin.

In my view, for me, I would personally choose to avoid insulin, unless I could be sure my body was, at that time, was producing reduced amounts of insulin.

Adding insulin to an idividual who is already producing plenty, but whose insulin resitance is elevated is almost like trying to extinguish a fire by fanning it.

Obviously, individuals should do their own research and make their own decisions. Whilst I may not always agree with another person's decision, I robustly defend their right to make their choice.

Yet again, we demonstrate how one size simply does not and cannot fit all.

 

[DCUKMod]

Thought there were quite a lot of other medications for Type 2 not just low carb and insulin... It is possible in NZ to get a fasting insulin test? I know it is virtually impossible in the UK with the NHS although available privately. I wondered if it was the same the world over (which would be a shame). For someone starting an insulin regime I imagine it would be a useful bit of info to have.

Just picking up on your post; at a presentation recently, a Consultant Endo stated that there are currently over 400 options for treating T2 diabetes, before including insulin.

Yes, 400 options, as opposed to 400 individual medications, but even so, that suggests to me that any route to insulin could be quite slow, unless it is established the individual is no longer producing much of their own, natural insulin.

 

[Alison Campbell]

however you should know that taking insulin can cause weight gain and does not protect you from most diabetic complications.

Hi Nicole, i'm interested in why insulin would not protect from diabetic complications. Could you expand on this please?Is this just for type 2?

 

[Jenny15]

Thought there were quite a lot of other medications for Type 2 not just low carb and insulin... It is possible in NZ to get a fasting insulin test? I know it is virtually impossible in the UK with the NHS although available privately. I wondered if it was the same the world over (which would be a shame). For someone starting an insulin regime I imagine it would be a useful bit of info to have.

That's not what I said. People can get an insulin level test if they want but I saw no particular need to.

 

[bulkbiker]

That's not what I said. People can get an insulin level test if they want but I saw no particular need to.

Not being picky but you said this

"The only other ways to address high BG is to reduce carbs and/or add insulin. A person might do one or both of these things. If reducing carbs is not enough, then the only remaining option is insulin."

So are you saying that you can get a fasting insulin test done in NZ? That was what I was interesetd in..