Newcastle Diet - to follow it and do shakes and veg, or deviate?

[AloeSvea]

Just popping in with my oft repeated reminder (sorry if I am boring you all) that the ND diet and defattifying the liver does not automatically have the desired effect on everyone.

I do not have a fatty liver, have v low triglycerides, and have had impaired glucose tolerance since I was a child, and type 2 for probably the last 4-5 years. Ish. The ND would never get me below my personal fat threshold, even if that was the problem, because my PFT is probably about 3 stone! Yes, that was a joke.

The ND is fab when it works, but professor Taylor himself states that aggressive weight loss is NOT necessary for the benefits to show. Any diet that suits the patient that results in sufficient weight loss will achieve the goal - provided their type 2 is attributable to fatty liver/being above the personal fat threshold.

I just have visions of people who will never benefit from this launching into it without proper understanding, potentially mucking up their metabolism by turning on their 'thrifty gene', and causing themselves further yoyo weight struggles further down the line.

Brunneria - I am VERY pleased you talk about this. I have paid attention I promise.

I have also read some info recently about the effect of VLCDs on women in particular. And I have become very interested in this (and need to give a message about it to Arab Horse...). It seems women are more resistant to having dramatic effects from VLCDs, and from dieting generally, which makes total sense when considering women's special role in carrying and giving birth to humanity. (We women have another level of fat retention or a bigger buffer zone if you like, that men don't have, is the theory posited, in order to have extra fat stores for pregnancy and breast feeding - very energy intensive activities.) It made total sense to me, when I read it. Doesn't mean a VLCD doesn't have an effect on us - just that it is much harder, especially when of potentially reproductive age. (ie younger women.) Something to consider indeed, when wondering about whether to VLCD/ND or not. (I am no longer potentially reproductive.)

I too, believe my Personal Fat Threshold is quite low. My mother is pre-diabetic now, and she only weighs 54 kg. My God! I cannot imagine being that weight now. So I relate to the three stone joke! (And I can't imagine doing a semi-starvation diet again any time soon, or even in the distant future!) (No, no, no!). And yes, good for folk to have a gander at Richard Doughty and his experience, when considering the range of PFTs.

I hear you re the fatty liver stipulation. I assumed my liver was fatty, due to my former big belly. It was a pretty safe assumption . (My diabetes nurse whipped a measuring tape out and measured around my waist before giving me a definite nod in the affirmative on the ND.) But I am very pleased Arab Horse's doctor was making her be tested for it, as she is very slender already. Very very wise and emphasises the reason for medical supervision, or at the very least, an initial consultation with medical professionals. Quite right.

 

[AloeSvea]

@AloeSvea

I am starting to eat most days around lunch time for the moment I am drinking coffee in the morning. I went for a bike ride yesterday with a non exercising type = very heavy overweight person BMI 30+ and he was out of breath and breaking a serious sweat. I told him about Pre-diabetes. Hopefully he sidesteps T2 in a big way.

As for the neuropathy I've got it in my right hand as I type right now. This T2 never lets up..

Diabetes is a ****** for sure!

Pleased your eating-within-a-time-period regime is working so well, and great for you to share it. I certainly look at my BG log book more closely now, in terms of periods of eating. It does make sense! (and when thinking about liver and pancreases and so on.)

Swedish diabetes researchers are very positive about coffee. (Swedes love their coffee.) It is even recommended that diabetics drink 5 or 6 cups a day! Whew! (2 or 3 is well enough for me. OK, sometimes 4. This cold yucky weather just goes on and on and on and on and on...) (well you get the picture, and the association with taking this lovely liquid stimulating drug!) I know many health-diabetes writers would flinch at the 5 or 6 cups a day. (Many say no, due to adrenals, dehydration risk etc. I say - I'll go with the Swedes on the coffee question!) Just going to make myself a cup of coffee....

 

[AloeSvea]

Today I got my HBA1c reading post-deviated ND - with a whole new batch of blood cells since semi-starving. When my diabetes nurse came back and told me it was 40 I had to get her to repeat it a couple of times. She thought it was a language thing, but I was just so stunned. Blown away. Delighted. And super excited for sure.

I had given up on getting a 40 and below reading, as my FBGs are not in the normal range, but prediabetic range. But my sweetheart had noticed and remarked that my post meal readings had improved hugely during and since the D-ND. And indeed, on a low carb diet they were and are in the normal range.

So, yes, a total drop in 9 points in terms of glycated blood cells.

I lost noticeable weight around my waist, ie belly fat, and one assumes, off my pancreas and liver. (Also off my arms and my back - basically a light layer of fat was trimmed off.) I went from 71kg to 64-65 kg but also gained some muscle too in that time. It's a shame I didn't get a liver scan like the folk on the real ND did, but a liver scan was not a part of my diabetes care. A helluva lot of test strips were though! Which I am very grateful for.

If my understanding is correct, this means I am producing enough insulin in response to food, but my system is still having some problems with the dawn phenomenon - too much sugar is being released from my liver. But my beta cells are producing and functioning much better again.

This is all in relation to a low-carb diet. If I eat some pasta my meter will show it. I have normal (ie non-diabetc) post meal readings when I eat zucchini strips instead. The real food I ate on the D-ND was all modified paleo. (Modified means I eat yoghurt and cheese, and butter.) (Cheese and butter were too calorific to have anything but tiny amounts on the VLCD.)

So I am a diabetic with very good blood glucose control on a low-carb diet. I did a mini paleo VLCD and LCD (a version of the Newcastle diet), which brought my HBA1c from 49 to 40 in the last three months. I am presently a lean diabetic.

That's it then! Re me and the D-ND.

 

[Indy51]

Great result @AloeSvea - keep up the great work

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

Today I got my HBA1c reading post-deviated ND - with a whole new batch of blood cells since semi-starving. When my diabetes nurse came back and told me it was 40 I had to get her to repeat it a couple of times. She thought it was a language thing, but I was just so stunned. Blown away. Delighted. And super excited for sure.

I had given up on getting a 40 and below reading, as my FBGs are not in the normal range, but prediabetic range. But my sweetheart had noticed and remarked that my post meal readings had improved hugely during and since the D-ND. And indeed, on a low carb diet they were and are in the normal range.

So, yes, a total drop in 9 points in terms of glycated blood cells.

I lost noticeable weight around my waist, ie belly fat, and one assumes, off my pancreas and liver. (Also off my arms and my back - basically a light layer of fat was trimmed off.) I went from 71kg to 64-65 kg but also gained some muscle too in that time. It's a shame I didn't get a liver scan like the folk on the real ND did, but a liver scan was not a part of my diabetes care. A helluva lot of test strips were though! Which I am very grateful for.

If my understanding is correct, this means I am producing enough insulin in response to food, but my system is still having some problems with the dawn phenomenon - too much sugar is being released from my liver. But my beta cells are producing and functioning much better again.

This is all in relation to a low-carb diet. If I eat some pasta my meter will show it. I have normal (ie non-diabetc) post meal readings when I eat zucchini strips instead. The real food I ate on the D-ND was all modified paleo. (Modified means I eat yoghurt and cheese, and butter.) (Cheese and butter were too calorific to have anything but tiny amounts on the VLCD.)

So I am a diabetic with very good blood glucose control on a low-carb diet. I did a mini paleo VLCD and LCD (a version of the Newcastle diet), which brought my HBA1c from 49 to 40 in the last three months. I am presently a lean diabetic.

That's it then! Re me and the D-ND.

@AloeSvea

Great news for you. I am thrilled. . I OTOH have not so much good news. For the life of me i am still learning how to cope.

Here's the good news. Since starting this journey
1) I've lost 55lbs or about just shy of 4 stone (over 1 year). So I am in way better shape.The 6-Pack looks way better than at any time in the last 20 years but whatever!
2) The bad news is I've not been focusing on my BS levels. I've had no meter. I was told not to concern your self about a meter by the Endo.
3) The neurologist / pseudo GP doesn't believe in ND. I think he thinks its a bunch of BS
4) I have to find an Endo that can support me to the point of where i need to get to which is substantially in proving my BG control
I don't think I am far from that but as soon as I settle on a meter & strips I'll get into the swing of it and get done micromanaging my T2D.. Hopefully soon I'll have put it into remission..

JM

 

[Brunneria]

That is wonderful @AloeSvea

Just a thought - do you get full lipid profiles from cholesterol tests?

If so, your triglyceride number is a very good, very quick, way of gauging the extent of a fatty liver.
- Trigs under one = a fat free liver (that is, of course, a very simplified idea, but it is one that I apply to my results every time I get them! )

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

@AloeSvea

One more question for you. Do you believe it was absolute weight loss down to your current BMI of 22 or the severity of D-ND / tight BG readings that caused your T2 to be more controlled?

 

[brettsza]

Very happy for you that the DND worked for you but keep the pastas in check, those little things are so hard to resist specially dipped in red cherry tomatoes olive oil some basil and topped with a bunch of parmesan. I am on nd at the moment so I should really even stop talking about it as my lifeless tasteless shake is still 4 hours away, the only thing to look forward to apart from a bowl of vegetable soup. Boring but hey I am more than half way through it so not that bad.

 

[AloeSvea]

Hey! I must be looking pretty fierce and muscular! The Swedes just checked me at the airport for carrying bombs. I don't know whether or not to be insulted or complimented by it, as a middle-aged woman. I look like I could take over a ****-pit? Stick them with my lancet? (My darling tells me it could 'Death by a million lancet pricks'. ) But We shouldn't give them ideas? That a middle aged diabetic could be carrying her aviva meter as a weapon? Hmmm. I will attend to these lovely comments and questions above when I have made the move from the subarctic to the subtropics anon....

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

Hey! I must be looking pretty fierce and muscular! The Swedes just checked me at the airport for carrying bombs. I don't know whether or not to be insulted or complimented by it, as a middle-aged woman. I look like I could take over a ****-pit? Stick them with my lancet? (My darling tells me it could 'Death by a million lancet pricks'. ) But We shouldn't give them ideas? That a middle aged diabetic could be carrying her aviva meter as a weapon? Hmmm. I will attend to these lovely comments and questions above when I have made the move from the subarctic to the subtropics anon....

@AloeSvea

Thanks for your posting. I noticed that your BMI got down to 22 from 30. I am now at @ 23.9 I've noticed some folks have gotten all the way to a BMI o 18 and still not become non diabetic. I'm going to double check my height (I may have shrunk some) and monitor closely my BMI . If I don't become un-diabetic @ 21.9 I may give up the continuation of the diet. Some folks are rightly concerned that too much weight loss just isn't good. I am not doing a ND or DND but a Dr Jason Fung of not eating in the mornings, then eating sensibly at lunch and dinner. Slowly losing weight so that (& I pray that ) my liver and pancreas become un-fatty.

JM

 

[AloeSvea]

HI

@AloeSvea

Great news for you. I am thrilled. . I OTOH have not so much good news. For the life of me i am still learning how to cope.

Here's the good news. Since starting this journey
1) I've lost 55lbs or about just shy of 4 stone (over 1 year). So I am in way better shape.The 6-Pack looks way better than at any time in the last 20 years but whatever!
2) The bad news is I've not been focusing on my BS levels. I've had no meter. I was told not to concern your self about a meter by the Endo.
3) The neurologist / pseudo GP doesn't believe in ND. I think he thinks its a bunch of BS
4) I have to find an Endo that can support me to the point of where i need to get to which is substantially in proving my BG control
I don't think I am far from that but as soon as I settle on a meter & strips I'll get into the swing of it and get done micromanaging my T2D.. Hopefully soon I'll have put it into remission..

JM

Hi JM,

Much appreciated.

And your good news is still good news! Weight loss, alas, for many of us T2Diabetics is a big part of the road back to better BG/insulin health. And those abs sound fan tootin' tastic too for blood glucose control (I wish weight loss wasn't! I had to walk past chocolate covered pistacio cupcakes this morning! Argh! This will always be an argh-able thing for me.)

Yeah, I am a big fan of the meter as you know. And I really like how you call it micro-managing the T2D! Very good. (Too sad too! But too true too.)

I hope you get the supportive medical team behind you. And thumbs up and a high five for being on the path to better health!

 

[AloeSvea]

That is wonderful @AloeSvea

Just a thought - do you get full lipid profiles from cholesterol tests?

If so, your triglyceride number is a very good, very quick, way of gauging the extent of a fatty liver.
- Trigs under one = a fat free liver (that is, of course, a very simplified idea, but it is one that I apply to my results every time I get them! )

Hi Brunneria - good tip on the liver and triglycerides numbers. Will look out for it.

I didn't get the full bloods done at my last HBA1c - not covered in that appointment in the subarctic. But I am back in a country where it is covered, so I will get them done in a months time when I get to a doctor. (And meanwhile the sun shining here in the subtropics is a good push for my usually too low vitamin D!)

Had a check , just now, of my trig numbers since diagnosis (pre diagnosis and pre getting on the health kick they were too awful to quote! I am a metabolic syndrome T2D person if there ever was one.) Only ever had trig numbers below 1 once (0.9) and that was after my 'paleo 30' month (just as the paleo folk predict) last October. Last lipid test trig result was 1.2, in March.

(Spot the travelling T2 diabetic! She is the one carrying her lipid and BG results in her luggage!)

It is a shame that I won't know what my blood lipid profile was after 2 months of a semi starvation clean diet! But I can't fit it in the current traveller lifestyle, alas. They were probably lovely! But after plane food, being stranded in the middle east (I LOVE middle eastern food, I couldn't resist), and family birthday celebrations (how not to taste my daughters home baked cake?) they are probably not so good since! Oh well. Life as a T2 Diabetic? It will be interesting to see how by body is readjusting in June, when I will get the lipids done again. Won't be so pristine, but certainly more 'real' with including a broader range of food, complete with some wheat, milk in food, and certainly slipped in added sugar.

Cutting back on those again. Love having my feet. Love the eyesight. Don't want to be on kidney dialysis (I have to chant this to keep resisting those cupcakes now I am not in my own kitchen...)

 

[AloeSvea]

@AloeSvea

One more question for you. Do you believe it was absolute weight loss down to your current BMI of 22 or the severity of D-ND / tight BG readings that caused your T2 to be more controlled?

Both! The extent of weight loss is due to the D-ND, and the greater weight loss/defatting of liver and pancreas pushed the HBA1c down to 40 from 49.

I was able to lose a lot of weight at the beginning of my T2D journey (if I can say that) but found the last push from normal weight, to lean to be the hardest (which is the norm in shall we say, such athletic enterprises? lol). The D-ND was the extra extreme my personal metabolism needed to do that, which is also a common story, isn't it? With regards to the ND/VLCDs for T2Ds.

Apparently, this is a common story for women too. It is harder for us to lose weight, especially the last vestiges of it, due to being mothers of humanity, and having a fat protection mechanism going, so we can get pregnant, carry babies, birth them, feed them from our bodies, and work to continue to feed them. (It makes sense when one lays it out on the line like that!) And this carries over to women who are no longer of a reproductive age also. (Which I am not.)

I have read about this online, and my diabetes nurse confirmed it when we had our post D-ND appointment. Her clinic has VLCD teams going, which is wonderfully advanced (I arrived too late to join, and I had this wonderful forum in any case as support). And she said she and other medical professionals notice that weight loss takes longer, and is often not so dramatic for women, compared to men. Comparing myself to the men in here, this seems to be my experience too. We have a different pace of weight loss on a VLCD, in other words, due to that fat protection mechanism we have.

Just to add - I don't want to get to the weight I was at 21, which is Prof Taylor's line (and I understand it - it makes sense perhaps for men?) - I would prefer to build up muscle instead. My loved ones would too, as I am lean now (and me getting down to a bmi of 18 would scare us all!)

 

[AloeSvea]

Very happy for you that the DND worked for you but keep the pastas in check, those little things are so hard to resist specially dipped in red cherry tomatoes olive oil some basil and topped with a bunch of parmesan. I am on nd at the moment so I should really even stop talking about it as my lifeless tasteless shake is still 4 hours away, the only thing to look forward to apart from a bowl of vegetable soup. Boring but hey I am more than half way through it so not that bad.

I'm a paleo gal except on special occasions! So no pasta, bread, potatoes, rice, legumes - mostly It works for me, as I am a 'wheat belly' person if there ever was one. From the age of 35 to post diagnosis and becoming paleo (ie wheat free, low carb) I was having folk ask me when the baby is due. (No baby - just bloating!) I am now lean, and lost the 'wheat belly' in only a few months, going off wheat and milk. I don't like rules and to be deprived, or feel deprived, so I will have little tastes off my loved ones' plates, when they are eating pasta, and pizza, and homebaked sourdough bread.... but mainly I am wheat free. Except on special occasions!

I don't miss milk any more - but I had to be weaned off of that. Will always miss pasta, but it's easier now. I eat fabulous wholefoods, and I have learnt to cook. So I am not deprived from lovely delicious food. Thank goodness! (And I continue to eat fruit, unlike some more hardline wholefoods low blood glucose food folk).

What does my family think? My extended family think I am extreme, and on some weird health kick, and maybe the T2D was imaginary and really not a big deal. (I am amongst a lot of extended family again.) My close family are relieved I may now be beating the worst complications due to changing my diet and becoming more active and muscular.

 

[trotskyite]

That is wonderful @AloeSvea

Just a thought - do you get full lipid profiles from cholesterol tests?

If so, your triglyceride number is a very good, very quick, way of gauging the extent of a fatty liver.
- Trigs under one = a fat free liver (that is, of course, a very simplified idea, but it is one that I apply to my results every time I get them! )

Are you sure this is the case with fatty liver? Circulatory triglycerides are not usually a symptom of fatty liver. It is normally suspected with elevated liver enzymes eg ALT. But is only usually diagnosed via liver biopsy or rarely via MRI. I have seen an endocrinologist interviewed stating all type2 diabetics have fatty liver as it is the cause of fasting blood glucose rise via insulin resistance which starts with pre-diabetes. That said there are people with fatty liver who are not type2 diabetics or pre diabetic so all is not known on this subject.

 

[Brunneria]

Are you sure this is the case with fatty liver? Circulatory triglycerides are not usually a symptom of fatty liver. It is normally suspected with elevated liver enzymes eg ALT. But is only usually diagnosed via liver biopsy or rarely via MRI. I have seen an endocrinologist interviewed stating all type2 diabetics have fatty liver as it is the cause of fasting blood glucose rise via insulin resistance which starts with pre-diabetes. That said there are people with fatty liver who are not type2 diabetics or pre diabetic so all is not known on this subject.

Well, I have seen enough evidence to convince me.
Have a look at this video and see what you think:

 

[AloeSvea]

Well, I have seen enough evidence to convince me.
Have a look at this video and see what you think:

Many thanks Brunneria, for the youtube link! A/Prof Sikaris is a straight talker, a great teacher and has bonzer graphics to boot. I will check out the Jimmy Moore book too. And understand more about why the trig levels are the ones to watch... (And I really liked him ending on the notion that you have to live a disease to truly understand it. Too too true. For him it's his daughter for forum readers who haven't seen the talk above.)

 

[Brunneria]

I am sure that fatty liver is a very complex issue, and all sorts of things come into play, but trig levels are a very good shorthand way of checking.

 

[trotskyite]

Well, I have seen enough evidence to convince me.
Have a look at this video and see what you think:

Great Vid thanks for that!
ps just watched at 25.55 he states the test for fatty liver is ALT

 

[Brunneria]

Great Vid thanks for that!
ps just watched at 25.55 he states the test for fatty liver is ALT

Yup,

And if your Trigs are over 1, then it may be worth asking for an ALT test.