Nhs Funding

[Boo1979]

Observer
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...hs-raises-remain-anger?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

[dbr10]

Observer
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...hs-raises-remain-anger?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Thanks for posting. Paul Johnson has this

https://mobile.twitter.com/PJTheEconomist

And on LBC
Director Of The Institute For Fiscal Studies: There Is No Brexit Dividend http://www.lbc.co.uk//radio/presenters/tom-swarbrick/there-is-no-brexit-dividend/

Robert Peston says

https://mobile.twitter.com/Peston/status/1007901538017214464

Nick Cohen

https://mobile.twitter.com/NickCohen4

Sarah Wollaston

https://mobile.twitter.com/sarahwollaston

 

[lucylocket61]

on Facebook today:

Robert Peston
2 hrs ·
Facebook Creator
·
Three points on what the prime minister has today revealed on the planned NHS spending increase that she will set out in detail tomorrow.

1) A rise of £20bn “real” over five years implies annual increments of 3.7% - which takes us back roughly to where spending was before the Blair/Brown bonanza from 2002 to 2010. But the pressures of an ageing population were much less then. The extra money is no bonanza for the NHS.

2) The idea of a Brexit dividend, as articulated by the PM today, is dubious. UK growth has slowed significantly since the Brexit vote, at a time when global growth has significantly accelerated. If this does not represent a Brexit drag on growth, it is very difficult to know what it is. And UK growth is forecast, even by the government, to limp along at 1 to 1.5% for years to come, a cut of roughly a third from pre-Brexit forecasts. Lower growth cuts tax revenues more than we pay net to the EU budget.

3) To remind you, our net contribution to the EU budget, after money we get back from the EU in various forms, is nearer £150m a week than the £350m that was on the bus. So even if you believe the reduction in UK economic growth is temporary and that there really will be a Brexit dividend, the PM’s promise of £600m extra in cash for the NHS in 2023/24 still means our taxes and government borrowing are set to rise by £450m a week.

 

[ringi]

If spending is increased too quickly all it does is increase the profits of locum agents and increase what locum doctors are paid. (Last time NHS spending was increased, most of it went into the pockets of consultants and GPs with very little improvement in services.)

It takes about 10 years to trains additional consultants or GPs......

But better social care can quickly reduce the NHS work load.

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

But better social care can quickly reduce the NHS work load.

No doubt.

most of it went into the pockets of consultants and GPs

Really? Understandably many are now retiring, trained in the 60s and 70s, they've earned it. Surprising how many newer GPs are not only leaving their jobs as GPs but leaving medicine as well. I'm not sure how anyone can judge what a GP or consultant is worth. Personally, my GP is worth her weight in gold, but I know from this forum not everyone has the same view.

Consultants in England earn from £60,000 to more than £100,000, while salaried GPs earn from about £55,000 to £80,000 or more (Pay for doctors - NHS Careers).

 

[ringi]

It seems with GP their income per day went up while their quality of life went down, hence a lot of them went part-time etc. We need to find a way to reduce their workload and stess that does not depend on employing staff who take a long time to train.

A lot of consultants get more then what you say due to additional payments they get, due to my wife's job, I don't know how much is public information. But start looking at payments for additional 'sections' and clinical excellence etc.

 

[lucylocket61]

The thing is, this extra money will, after inflation, keep the NHS at the level it is now - sort of - perhaps.

but population is increasing, for various reasons.

Baby Boomers are getting older and need more intervention. Given that some of the ones who have been paying into this for the past 70 years are now in most need of help, I get angry when the aging population is described in the media and by politicians as a drain on the system. There are a lot of people in 86 years old and above who started paying into the NHS when they were 16 years old. They should get the benefit, with no shaming or difficult, now its their turn to need help.

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

Given that some of the ones who have been paying into this for the past 70 years

Trouble is successive governments did put their money into a pot so they could use it when they needed it, they spent it on people who needed it at the time.

I get angry when the aging population is described in the media and by politicians as a drain on the system.

Couldn't agree more, unfortunately nobody thought all those years ago that inventing wonderful new drugs for all sorts of ailments would lead to an elderly population in need of some fairly intensive care. Not sure what the answer is. I never though Bladerunner was a viable proposition (that's if my memory serves me well).

There are a lot of people in 86 years old and above who started paying into the NHS when they were 16 years old.

Me too, in fact I started paying at fifteen, so even as a student, I paid N.I. Fully paid up to the age of 65. So far the NHS didn't pay for my knee replacements, my cataract, removal of the cyst on my head, nor will they pay for the other lump that looks like the top of a tennis ball that's on the back of my head. I'm grateful they fixed my burst appendix and peritonitis, where would I be without them? As for old age, if I'm spared, if I'm left on my own, I think I'll sell the house buy a boat and sail off into the sunset, while I have the chance. Maybe end up feeding the fishes.

 

[dbr10]

The thing is, this extra money will, after inflation, keep the NHS at the level it is now - sort of - perhaps.

but population is increasing, for various reasons.

Baby Boomers are getting older and need more intervention. Given that some of the ones who have been paying into this for the past 70 years are now in most need of help, I get angry when the aging population is described in the media and by politicians as a drain on the system. There are a lot of people in 86 years old and above who started paying into the NHS when they were 16 years old. They should get the benefit, with no shaming or difficult, now its their turn to need help.

Yes, it's often presented as the nerve of people living longer, rather something that should be celebrated.

 

[ringi]

Given that healthy people have most health costs in the last 2 years of life regardless of how long they live, increasing age is not the primary issue. But somehow the national sickness service needs to become a health service.

 

[EllieM]

I guess the problem is rationing. No one likes to admit to it but when the number of new and better and more expensive treatments continues to grow, then the system can't afford to give everyone the treatments they need/want.

I've lived in NZ for the last year and don't particularly like the blood testing meter I'm forced to use (not as "nice" as the one I had before but if I wanted to continue to use that I'd have to import the strips from overseas). However, by forcing everyone to use the same meter (I think there are a couple of different meters but they all use the same strips) the health service is saving a fortune in testing strips so I can see their point. And to be fair, the doctors are happy to give me as many strips as I need (50 a week) so I can't complain about that.

 

[dbr10]

I guess the problem is rationing. No one likes to admit to it but when the number of new and better and more expensive treatments continues to grow, then the system can't afford to give everyone the treatments they need/want.

I've lived in NZ for the last year and don't particularly like the blood testing meter I'm forced to use (not as "nice" as the one I had before but if I wanted to continue to use that I'd have to import the strips from overseas). However, by forcing everyone to use the same meter (I think there are a couple of different meters but they all use the same strips) the health service is saving a fortune in testing strips so I can see their point. And to be fair, the doctors are happy to give me as many strips as I need (50 a week) so I can't complain about that.

It's been suggested today that there could be a cannabis dividend if we legalised and taxed it. Something to think about, maybe

 

[bulkbiker]

Yes, it's often presented as the nerve of people living longer, rather something that should be celebrated.

But that completely depends on quality of life.. my mother of 92 survives but does she enjoy being alive ? I wonder sometimes.. prolongation of life with things like dementia seems less of a success of medical science and more a form of torture for the afflicted and their relatives. I hope by the time I get somewhere close to that age assisted suicide is a viable option in the UK with no kids to look after me I really don’t fancy a decade in an old folks prison..

 

[PenguinMum]

Dont worry about not having kids to look after you @bulkbiker. When my time comes round my kids and partners will be working around the clock for whatever money they are given to put a roof over their heads and food in their body. Who knows whether they will be anle to afgord the luxury of children. Thats with a good University degree. The good old days are well and truly over. I fear for them not me.

 

[dbr10]

But that completely depends on quality of life.. my mother of 92 survives but does she enjoy being alive ? I wonder sometimes.. prolongation of life with things like dementia seems less of a success of medical science and more a form of torture for the afflicted and their relatives. I hope by the time I get somewhere close to that age assisted suicide is a viable option in the UK with no kids to look after me I really don’t fancy a decade in an old folks prison..

My father was very frail for the last ten years of his life. It was terrible to see. We lost him last year. He was hospitalised seven times before he died and each time they just treated his immediate condition, rather than seeing him as a human being. I don't want to be neglected or abused in an old folks' home either. I pressed my MP, the Right Hon. Gutless Wonder to support the push for assisted dying when it was debated in Parliament. Of course, he wouldn't.

 

[bulkbiker]

My father was very frail for the last ten years of his life. It was terrible to see. We lost him last year. He was hospitalised seven times before he died and each time they just treated his immediate condition, rather than seeing him as a human being. I don't want to be neglected or abused in an old folks' home either. I pressed my MP, the Right Hon. Gutless Wonder to support the push for assisted dying when it was debated in Parliament. Of course, he wouldn't.

I really can’t see the rationale for not introducing it. Would save the NHS millions as well as saving much suffering..

 

[lucylocket61]

But that completely depends on quality of life.. my mother of 92 survives but does she enjoy being alive ? I wonder sometimes.. prolongation of life with things like dementia seems less of a success of medical science and more a form of torture for the afflicted and their relatives. I hope by the time I get somewhere close to that age assisted suicide is a viable option in the UK with no kids to look after me I really don’t fancy a decade in an old folks prison..

The older people should still have the choice and not be pilloried for choosing to remain alive with medical assistance.

 

[bulkbiker]

The older people should still have the choice and not be pilloried for choosing to remain alive with medical assistance.

Agree but the choice is the current missing element.. I would like the choice of a painless way out of the world at a time of my choosing if I so desire.. I can’t see why anyone should be denied that.

 

[lucylocket61]

Agree but the choice is the current missing element.. I would like the choice of a painless way out of the world at a time of my choosing if I so desire.. I can’t see why anyone should be denied that.

I agree, but that is not the same as not getting the care if you choose to live, due to lack of proper NHS funding and political stirring up of divisive rhetoric against the elderly who built what we have today.

 

[NicoleC1971]

I have no personal experience with friends/family dying a bad death although some live with chronic ill health so I can't comment on assisted dying. Other than that whilst not enough good palliative and social care exists, I can understand the desperation of those who seek it.
My Pink Spectacles
I do feel strongly that we should not lose sight of the progress we have made and not look back on 'the good old days' when we tended to die younger, not survive heart attacks etc., got killed at work or if female had no control over our fertility, or have much time to enjoy being retired or having a very long period of peace in our history as we have gradually gotten richer in an absolute if not relative sense.
I think that improving human health is a solvable problem -look at this forum.