Re: To All Members

[Doczoc]

To all our highly researched and well controlled diabetics on the forum

When advising diabetics, even if it is in answer to a post by an experienced diabetic, please remember that this forum is read by newly diagnosed as well.

You may have got your numbers very low but for someone who is high then this is like shooting for the moon! The advice to get to the NICE guidelines is do-able for most newly diagnosed. Once they get their levels down to that level, then they can try for the lower levels as, by this time, they will have got some idea on diet etc. and more experience in just what diabetes is.

Similarly on diet, yes, you may have a diet that controls your diabetes successfully but did you start there? Reducing down gradually is more likely to be permanent and a life style change than trying to go ultra- low immediately and perhaps failing and feeling guilty about it.

Newly diagnosed diabetics need time to acclimatise to their condition and small steps at a time are more likely to succeed than very large steps.

Similarly advising that certain low numbers are ok just because you have attained them is very disheartening for someone confused and inexperienced.

Being confused immediately after a diagnosis is very common.

Hi Sue, hope you don't mind me quoting you here but I thought it was worth discussing.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I managed to get my waking BG level from double figures to low 5s within a week. That's quite a big step! I needed to get to basics and concentrate on just one thing -lowering those numbers. As such, I'm not sure that it is 'shooting for the moon' TBH Sue, it was fairly straightforward really. If I can do that, others in my position could also, I'm not saying everyone could, but some could!

For me, reducing down slowly would have been a disaster. I'm naturally very weak-willed when it comes to food so had I gone off plan for any time I'm sure I would have ended up back on the carbs big time. I would have been continually climbing back in the saddle, so to speak.

Also seeing others posting their low numbers gave me hope that it was possible, I think without that hope I would have just given up! Surely other newly diagnosed members could view it in the same way.

I can only speak for myself, but 'cold turkey' has proved very effective for me and I was as confused and scared as anybody. If it worked for me, it can also work for others, although I can see that it is not for everyone.

Surely, that's why we need as many people as possible discussing their approaches so that new members can pick and choose. I don't think there is one 'right' way, although carb control has to play a part for everyone.

I think the more stories new members are exposed to, the more able they are to make informed decisions. I can't advocate an approach I haven't followed, that would be hypocritical. My approach worked for ME, surely by default then it would work for others too!

 

[sugarless sue]

Also seeing others posting their low numbers gave me hope that it was possible, I think without that hope I would have just given up! Surely other newly diagnosed members could view it in the same way.

It's advising the immediate reduction that gets me Doc ! Not the fact that new members can read up on these things. You took the decision to go low but many faithfully follow the ' healthy diet' for a long time before they get to these forums. For them with many health problems as well as high levels the advice needs to be marched to their circumstances.

If this is going to be discussed then I am moving it to Discussions but I do not want it to become yet another soap box for low carbing like a lot of threads have become lately. This particular forum is for ALL diabetics and as such encompasses many different views and methods of controlling diabetes. Those of you who belong to other forums should adjust your replies here to reflect that.

 

[Doczoc]

If this is going to be discussed then I am moving it to Discussions but I do not want it to become yet another soap box for low carbing like a lot of threads have become lately. This particular forum is for ALL diabetics and as such encompasses many different views and methods of controlling diabetes. Those of you who belong to other forums should adjust your replies here to reflect that.

I'm sorry you see it so negatively. So do we not let others know what has worked for us then?

 

[cugila]

Hi Doc.

I'm so glad your approach worked for you. Unfortunately it doesn't always work that way for everybody.
Low carbing is not the only way forward. You know what works for you. It may not work for others, for various reasons. We try to cover ALL dietary approaches here, not just one.

The advice is to bear in mind that new members are not always as knowledgeable and when giving advice to make it a bit more basic until they have got to grips with a few things. Bombarding a newly diagnosed Diabetic with a myriad of facts and also giving them conflicting information is counter productive. Personally, I would have switched off and gone elsewhere.

There are some posts on here which start Ok then suddenly end up in highly involved technical discussions. The new poster is frequently forgotten and gets buried under an avalanche of unrelated facts and figures. Not really what the forum was designed for.

Using a driving analogy, when you pass your test after learning the basics, they don't stick you in a Ferrari and say right you are a racing driver now....go for it. You need a little experience under your belt first. Some people need things explained in minute detail. That's when you can post your opinions as to what to do, which way works for you. The initial responses should be supportive, welcoming and then build up over time.

The information is always here and can be read, doesn't stop people asking, "What the hell is that all about."

Nobody is saying that there is to be no discussions, so you have that wrong. Just bear in mind exactly who the advice is aimed at. Simple really !!

 

[Doczoc]

Hi Doc.

I'm so glad your approach worked for you. Unfortunately it doesn't always work that way for everybody.
Low carbing is not the only way forward. You know what works for you. It may not work for others, for various reasons. We try to cover ALL dietary approaches here, not just one.

But that is my point Ken, it worked for me, so it can work for others. But it seems that I'm being encouraged not to promote the low carb option. I'm not saying it will work for everyone, but it does work for lots of people.

If I got that wrong then fine, so can I clarify that I can advise people that a low carb diet worked for me, and they might want to try it?

 

[cugila]

Hi Doc.

We know it worked for you. That is not the issue. It worked for me for a time, I still reduce carbs and advise that everywhere, when appropriate !

This forum is not a low carb only site, like yours. We cover all types of diets etc.

Yes, of course you can advise people what has worked for you. I quite often do, that is not being banned or discouraged. It just needs to be at the right time and not in every thread when it is not the subject that was asked about. We have already had complaints and posts deleted because of this.

As stated, discussions are great. Questions and answers which ellicit responses. This is a discussion, nothing negative here I think ?

 

[sugarless sue]

The original intention of the post ' To all members ' is to remember what it is like to be new, confused and very uncertain about diabetes.

Some new members know nothing at all about diabetes, they get told they have it and then are left in limbo until they get their next appointment. They come here to ask about it and immediately get bombarded be lots of conflicting information. Confusing ?

We need to support and help new members not confuse them.

 

[Doczoc]

Hi Doc.

We know it worked for you. That is not the issue. It worked for me for a time, I still reduce carbs and advise that everywhere, when appropriate !

This forum is not a low carb only site, like yours. We cover all types of diets etc.

Yes, of course you can advise people what has worked for you. I quite often do, that is not being banned or discouraged. It just needs to be at the right time and not in every thread when it is not the subject that was asked about. We have already had complaints and posts deleted because of this.

As stated, discussions are great. Questions and answers which ellicit responses. This is a discussion, nothing negative here I think ?

I appreciate this is not a low carb site and I don't wish it to be, that is it's strength, people with differing views can debate. I've always supported this forum, privately and publicly. But surely the only way forward is discussion and debate, how else do we learn? So as long as I can share my experience with others then I'm happy!

 

[Doczoc]

The original intention of the post ' To all members ' is to remember what it is like to be new, confused and very uncertain about diabetes.

Some new members know nothing at all about diabetes, they get told they have it and then are left in limbo until they get their next appointment. They come here to ask about it and immediately get bombarded be lots of conflicting information. Confusing ?

We need to support and help new members not confuse them.

You are describing me on diagnosis Sue! My advice was 'no need to change anything, all things in moderation'. That was it, knew nothing of BG levels, HB1Acs, complications, NOTHING. But as long as there is conflicting opinions on what works then there will be confusion. Some posters seem more interested in winning the low carb/ non low carb battle than helping, I hope I don't fall into that category.

BTW I'm still terrified of this disease!

 

[cugila]

Where do I start? Well I feel like I've just been left to get on with it since Thursday. Left the doctors somewhat shell shocked and depressed. Having looked at the info on the net I'm staggered by the confusing and conflicting info out there. The complications scare the hell out of me, were always just words before but now it affects me, I could go blind. I don't mind telling you that I'm scared stiff at moment.

As soon as I was diagnosed I decided to adopt a low carb diet, it seems to make sense, but I now see that it's not as straight forward as I thought and that low carb is actually controversial for diabetics. How the hell can a high carb diet help maintain sugar levels, seems insane to me ?

Remember this Doc.........November 24th 2008. That's why we want to remind experienced members a bit about their roots, and how they were when they first joined.

What a long way you have come in just a year Doc, an inspiration to others. Nobody is planning to stop you telling others how you did it. Just let them in the door first. :wink:

I'm with you all the way on the debate and discussions. Bring it on.

 

[Doczoc]

Where do I start? Well I feel like I've just been left to get on with it since Thursday. Left the doctors somewhat shell shocked and depressed. Having looked at the info on the net I'm staggered by the confusing and conflicting info out there. The complications scare the hell out of me, were always just words before but now it affects me, I could go blind. I don't mind telling you that I'm scared stiff at moment.

As soon as I was diagnosed I decided to adopt a low carb diet, it seems to make sense, but I now see that it's not as straight forward as I thought and that low carb is actually controversial for diabetics. How the hell can a high carb diet help maintain sugar levels, seems insane to me ?

Remember this Doc.........November 24th 2008. That's why we want to remind experienced members a bit about their roots, and how they were when they first joined.

What a long way you have come in just a year Doc, an inspiration to others. Nobody is planning to stop you telling others how you did it. Just let them in the door first. :wink:

I'm with you all the way on the debate and discussions. Bring it on.

Ha ha, it's freaky reading that. As I said to Sue above, I was the archetypal frightened and confused newbie, but the only way to get control both physically and mentally was to absorb as much info as I could. If I can get here Ken, then surely we have to let others have the same opportunity, that's my point, I was no different to any other scared and frightened newbie! But with a bit of research and debate, look where I am now!

 

[cugila]

Doc.

Diplomacy here.......?

You are young and obviously computer savvy, able to search the net and assimilate all the confusing info out there. We have such a varied mix here. some like you some old f**ts like me. We all have to be able to take things in at our own pace. You can run, you would leave me behind. I get there in the end. That's how some of our members are, remember them.

Your forum is full of people who once were here and are now advising your new members.

You know we have a different approach. It seems to work well. If they want to be low carbers or non low carbers then there are a multitude of sites available. We are just glad to have helped them find their own destiny.

This site caters for all. So we are a bit middle of the road, but we still welcome low carbers and non low carbers alike. We plan to keep it that way.

 

[FordPrefect]

What initially put me off was the in my view rapid evangelical nature of some of the low carbers, please give your opinion but only where its relevant to the discussion at hand and also dont try and pull apart every post and poster that doesnt agree with you. I appreciate that what you have done works for you as an individual and thats great. Personally I dont agree with you and am still in the process of finding what works for me although recently things have started to look a lot better for me.

 

[Sid Bonkers]

although recently things have started to look a lot better for me.

Congratulations FordPrefect

My very first car was a sit up and beg 'puddlejumper' Ford Prefect

But it wasn't a classic car at the time, just an old banger :lol:

I think this whole (unnecessary in my view) argument is due to certain low carbers assumption that all other diets are high carb when that is definitely not the case.

I know that low carb diets work, I have read Bernstein's book but for me a low carb high fat diet was not attractive and I have been lucky enough to reduce both my weight by over 4 stone and my insulin usage by 22% by eating a 'much smaller portion diet' Works for me.

So can we please stop all this low carb verses high carb rubbish, high carb eat all you want diets will not work for any diabetic, surely thats a given

 

[wallycorker]

Also seeing others posting their low numbers gave me hope that it was possible, I think without that hope I would have just given up! Surely other newly diagnosed members could view it in the same way.

It's advising the immediate reduction that gets me Doc ! Not the fact that new members can read up on these things. You took the decision to go low but many faithfully follow the ' healthy diet' for a long time before they get to these forums. For them with many health problems as well as high levels the advice needs to be marched to their circumstances.

If this is going to be discussed then I am moving it to Discussions but I do not want it to become yet another soap box for low carbing like a lot of threads have become lately. This particular forum is for ALL diabetics and as such encompasses many different views and methods of controlling diabetes. Those of you who belong to other forums should adjust your replies here to reflect that.

As you know I'm not someone who is what is known as a low-carber - but I'm with DocZoc all the way on what he has written as it affects Type 2s.

Certainly my numbers improved very quickly indeed quite dramatically and I really didn't know what I was doing because it was before I'd arrived on these forums. I thought that I was eating a very low-fat diet (almost vegan) and at the same time calorie counting to lose weight. It was only after I'd arrived at these forums that I realised that it had been the carbohydrate that I'd cut out of my diet through the calorie counting that had led to my dramatic improvement.

Carbohydrate management is a very important message that needs to be given to Type 2s in particular - and quite possibly is of significance to Type 1s too from what I can understand.

John

 

[sugarless sue]

Once again we go down the line of low carb etc.
The original post is about supporting new members by giving them information in small doses so that they can take it in.
It would be nice if the threads on this board were answered in the context they are written instead of all descending into a low carb debate.

 

[Fujifilm]

My biggest problem with reading the "other" forum was it appears quite fanatical sorry but thats the way it comes across.

Its almost like those peeps in suits that get me out of bed on a Saturday morning to tell me theirs is the only way to heaven. I much prefer the Elvis approach, wear a cross and a St Davids star so as not to miss out on a technicality. :lol:

Thats why I like this forum, low carbs, high carbs, twin carbs! everyone has there own way of managing their situation, and I would rather take the bits of all the information and make it work for me rather than be preached at and told this is the way you should do it.

When I was new on here I did not know much about carbs, so I needed to be able to read positives and negatives. I am still confused by it all though. :mrgreen:

 

[wallycorker]

Once again we go down the line of low carb etc.
The original post is about supporting new members by giving them information in small doses so that they can take it in.
It would be nice if the threads on this board were answered in the context they are written instead of all descending into a low carb debate.

Dear all,

I'm at a total loss to understand why almost everything on these forums is turned into being a "low-carb" v "non low-carb" issue. I find the situation and particularly the fervour generated to be absolutely bewildering. Certainly, I'm not a person who is advocating "low carb" - I simply see it has carbohydrate management - to some that might mean 50g per day to me so far anyway it is 140g or sometimes much more in a day.

The one thing that all of us here do know is that carbohydrate is one of the most important foods that diabetics have no option but to manage in their diet if they want to avoid high blood glucose levels and progression - second only to the simple sugars that everyone is warned about. As far as I am concerned, this seems particularly relevant to non-insulin-dependent Type 2s such as me because we have nothing other than the sugar and carbohydrate in our diet to balance our blood glucose levels. I have no doubt whatsoever that reducing my carbohydrate intake led to a sudden and dramatic improvement in my glycaemic control - and normalisation of my blood glucose levels within a very short period of time. That is after my Type 2 condition had deteriorated for eight years through following - like a good patient does - the almost universal "do not test" and "eat plenty of starchy carbohydrate" message given out by most healthcare professionals.

I'm bewildered as to why the discussion of the subject causes such significant problems between individuals and moderators - including breakaway forums being set up. I visited a new one for the first time only yesterday. Certainly, I feel from what I have read that my views are very similar to those of both moderators Sue and Ken. However, I can just as easily relate to what Doczoc writes so very sensibly and eloquently.

What is it in the history of these forums that prevents them putting out a rational and simple but meaningful message to all newly diagnosed members? After all, they arrive here to learn what they ought to be doing to get to grips with what is after all a very serious health condition. I wish someone had been telling me something about carbohydrate management eight years ago at the time of my diagnosis!

John

 

[wallycorker]

........My biggest problem with reading the "other" forum was it appears quite fanatical sorry but thats the way it comes across........

Not certain as to what you mean by "the other" forum Fujifilm - I learn about new ones almost every day and I've come across several. Moreover, it seems as though most of them started here. Personally, I'm not certain that any one of them is more "fanatical" than any of the others.

I'm not certain that it is the way it ought to be - but obviously there is some sort of history!

John

 

[Patch]

I wish that I knew what i know now when I was diagnosed. It might have saved me many years of trial and error, during which time irreversible damage may have been done to my body.

It seems like Sue is advising that we "drip-feed" info to people that are newly diagnosed so as not to make the targets seem unattainable...

I would have been a very happy (18 year old) man if I'd been given a list of methods for controlling diabetes, and was allowed to make up my own mind. It was only through the SINGLE METHOD that was provided to me by my health care team FAILING that I ever started to research different methods.

NICE guidelines are a farce. If you are intent on reducing your numbers, you should commit to reducing them to levels where the risk of permanent damage is minimised (ie - "normal", non-diabetic numbers), and not be content on reducing them to a level that is deemed to be attainable by diabetics.

One thing we all need to agree on, however, is that we do not want newly diagnosed people posting here, and their thread turning into a battle between the advocates of different control methods.

What this forum REALLY NEEDS is a sticky thread with neautral information (links to external websites) on each control method. Provide ALL the available information and allow people to make informed decisions.

Peace, Love and .