Sugar or fat or both?

[catherinecherub]

Interesting article here about the effects of sugar and fat on cell destruction.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 123336.htm

 

[anna29]

Hiya, wow CC you're a gem! this was actually brought up in my insulin deficiency this weds at new DSN appt, hubby has read it with interest and will talk about it later with me. So helpful thank you and is much appreciated! Thanks again, Anna.x

 

[noblehead]

Makes interesting reading Catherine!

Nigel

 

[cugila]

Very interesting read CC........

I think it just goes to show that an excess of ANYTHING in our diet, be it Fat or Sugar can be bad for you.......I wonder what my pal Dr J would make of it........ :wink:

 

[pianoman]

Thanks for posting. An interesting read.

"When these three RNAs are present, the cells die in response to metabolic stress, such as exposure to large amounts of fats," says cardiologist Jean E. Schaffer, MD, the Virginia Minnich Distinguished Professor of Medicine at Washington University. "But if these three RNAs are missing, the cells don't die."

I'd be interested even more to read the details of the study... when I searched it looked like I'd have to pay for it. I'm wondering if the above quote can be directly translated to "eating large amounts of fats" and if so: are we talking about natural fats or industrially processed seed oils?

 

[viviennem]

I agree, Pianoman; I also wish they'd say just how high is "high"! And, apart from once in the first para, where they just refer to fat, they always say "fat and sugar", never "fat or sugar".

Sorry - nitpicking as usual! It's 'cos I'm a proofreader in another life.

Viv 8)

 

[frenchkittie]

An abstract of the original study is here ...

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 3111002099

but as the study was only recently published, it is not free. There is however a "referred by" link in the summary to...

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 3111002191 titled "Saturated Fatty Acids and snoRNAs: Partners in Crime"

So it looks like they are talking about these..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturated_fat

 

[Ka-Mon]

Thanks for posting. An interesting read.

"When these three RNAs are present, the cells die in response to metabolic stress, such as exposure to large amounts of fats," says cardiologist Jean E. Schaffer, MD, the Virginia Minnich Distinguished Professor of Medicine at Washington University. "But if these three RNAs are missing, the cells don't die."

I'd be interested even more to read the details of the study... when I searched it looked like I'd have to pay for it. I'm wondering if the above quote can be directly translated to "eating large amounts of fats" and if so: are we talking about natural fats or industrially processed seed oils?

I believe they are talking about cutting both. When Cardiologists or others HCPs tell us to cut the fats they don't mean one or the other, they mean both. What would be the point in cutting out industrially processed seed oils if one replaces them with natural (saturated) fats?

 

[Sid Bonkers]

Looks like an interesting link Catherine, thanks. As with all these scientific papers I shall need to read it a few times to fully understand it, **** dyslexia :cry:

 

[Ka-Mon]

I agree, Pianoman; I also wish they'd say just how high is "high"! And, apart from once in the first para, where they just refer to fat, they always say "fat and sugar", never "fat or sugar".

Sorry - nitpicking as usual! It's 'cos I'm a proofreader in another life.

Viv 8)

Different people quote different numbers for low carbs but there is a limit for fats made official by medical experts all over the world. The RDA indicates what a "safe" level for fats is so when in the article they talk about "High fats" I take that to mean in excess of the recommended RDA level.

 

[pianoman]

I believe they are talking about cutting both. When Cardiologists or others HCPs tell us to cut the fats they don't mean one or the other, they mean both. What would be the point in cutting out industrially processed seed oils if one replaces them with natural (saturated) fats?

I don't read any advice to cut anything in this article (about a study performed on genetically modified mice), nor do I see any connection made between dietary fat of any kind and high levels in the blood -- that's why I was asking It may be a mistake to assume that one always leads to the other.

As for the rest: industrially processed seed oils are relatively new on the scene (only in recent decades) while natural fats (including saturated) have been around in our diet forever.

 

[Ka-Mon]

I believe they are talking about cutting both. When Cardiologists or others HCPs tell us to cut the fats they don't mean one or the other, they mean both. What would be the point in cutting out industrially processed seed oils if one replaces them with natural (saturated) fats?

I don't read any advice to cut anything in this article (about a study performed on genetically modified mice), nor do I see any connection made between dietary fat of any kind and high levels in the blood -- that's why I was asking It may be a mistake to assume that one always leads to the other.

From that article, the second from last paragraph Dr Schaffer talks about reducing both the fat and sugar. Also the whole article is all about "Excess nutrients such as fat and sugar," so I would assume that what they mean is cut down on sugar and fats if one is consuming to much of it.

As a cardiologist who treats patients at Barnes-Jewish Hospital, Schaffer says a multifaceted approach is necessary to manage the complexities of metabolic diseases like diabetes and obesity. Encouraging patients to reduce the amount of fat and sugar in the diet might be a primary strategy for treatment

As for the rest: industrially processed seed oils are relatively new on the scene (only in recent decades) while natural fats (including saturated) have been around in our diet forever.

yes, natural fats have been in our diet forever and hence scientists/Doctors have had a long time to look into it and find out what is "good" and what is "bad" fats. And with todays technology it is very easy for them to find out if any "bad" fats is included in any products very quickly.

 

[pianoman]

I believe they are talking about cutting both. When Cardiologists or others HCPs tell us to cut the fats they don't mean one or the other, they mean both. What would be the point in cutting out industrially processed seed oils if one replaces them with natural (saturated) fats?

I don't read any advice to cut anything in this article (about a study performed on genetically modified mice), nor do I see any connection made between dietary fat of any kind and high levels in the blood -- that's why I was asking It may be a mistake to assume that one always leads to the other.

From that article, the second from last paragraph Dr Schaffer talks about reducing both the fat and sugar. Also the whole article is all about "Excess nutrients such as fat and sugar," so I would assume that what they mean is cut down on sugar and fats if one is consuming to much of it.

As a cardiologist who treats patients at Barnes-Jewish Hospital, Schaffer says a multifaceted approach is necessary to manage the complexities of metabolic diseases like diabetes and obesity. Encouraging patients to reduce the amount of fat and sugar in the diet might be a primary strategy for treatment

As for the rest: industrially processed seed oils are relatively new on the scene (only in recent decades) while natural fats (including saturated) have been around in our diet forever.

yes, natural fats have been in our diet forever and hence scientists/Doctors have had a long time to look into it and find out what is "good" and what is "bad" fats. And with todays technology it is very easy for them to find out if any "bad" fats is included in any products very quickly.

I see. I took that comment by Dr Schaffer as his general guidelines for the treatment of metabolic disorder. Again it may be a mistake to assume that the mouse study has any real bearing on that advice. I'm still trying to see the link between the study and the advice -- is he saying the mice have a metabolic disorder? In which case how is that related to their diet? And if so what exactly was their diet? And would that diet still make sense if applied to humans?

I'm glad you have faith in modern science's ability to detect "bad" fats -- unfortunately I think too much of that knowledge has been overridden by economic considerations.

 

[Ka-Mon]

I see. I took that comment by Dr Schaffer as his general guidelines for the treatment of metabolic disorder. Again it may be a mistake to assume that the mouse study has any real bearing on that advice. I'm still trying to see the link between the study and the advice -- is he saying the mice have a metabolic disorder? In which case how is that related to their diet? And if so what exactly was their diet? And would that diet still make sense if applied to humans?

To tell the truth I'm not sure if the whole experiment was carried out on mice or humans. Maybe (???) they found these 3 RNA's on humans and are further experimenting on mice.

Mice are only mentioned right at the end of the article again by Dr Schaffer where he says:

"We have a genetically modified mouse that does not make these three RNAs," Schaffer says. "So will that mouse somehow be protected against cellular damage from diabetes complications? That's a very interesting question, and it's where our future work is headed."

So I assume that if their "future work" is a success they will then experiment on humans although I don't believe that they'll set out to "genetically modify" human beings.

I'm glad you have faith in modern science's ability to detect "bad" fats --

Not only the "bad fats" but the good ones as well and a whole lot of other things that might be good or bad for consumption.

unfortunately I think too much of that knowledge has been overridden by economic considerations.

I'm not sure what you exactly mean here, can you expand a little more?

 

[phoenix]

I think that the headlines are a bit misleading. The researchers were well aware from the start that both too much fat (lipotoxicity) too much glucose (glucotoxicity) may cause cell death. They are both implicated in insulin resistance and beta cell death.
They showed that in those hostile environments (fatty acids/glucose) then indeed the cell died, They also found a mechanism for this. This was the activation of these particular RNAs. They also found that if they disabled the RNAs the cells didn't die even when in the hostile environment.
Pratically as the doctor says controlling diet ie both fat and sugar may help reduce the conditions for cell death but if this doesnt work then this knowledge could lead to a treatment

The fatty acid they used to cause the cell death in the experiments was palmitic. This is a saturated fat, found in palm oil, coconut oil, meat and dairy produce. However eating palmitc acid doesn't necessarily lead to a lot of it in the body . We eat fats but they are then broken up before they are absorbed, later other fats are synthesized. Palmitic acid is the first to be synthesized, it is also made when new fat is created from excess carbohydrate, though this is actually a minor pathway in humans (google Hellerstein de novolipogenesis)
This is a good primer on fat breakdown/ absorption/storage

http://science.howstuffworks.com/enviro ... -cell1.htm

This is the conclusion by K Frayn of a brief review on the state of knowledge today (2010)

We are left with some advance in knowledge, but a number of uncertainties (see Fig. 1 for a summary of our view on the current state of knowledge regarding dietary factors and their influence on insulin sensitivity). This study makes it clear that we do not fully understand the origins of the individual fatty acids in adipose tissue. Only for linoleic acid is there a consistent and strong relationship with dietary intake [8]. For the minor saturated fatty acids, other than 17:0, which cannot be synthesised by humans, synthesis within the body may be more important than intake

(linoleic acid is a polyunsaturated fat, 17 is margaric acid a very minor fatty acid and is found in dairy and in lamb and beef.)
He summarises his views in a seesaw diagram showing those dietary macronutrients and nutrients that may be implicated with insulin sensitiviy and those that may be implicated in resistance.
Senstivity : polyunsaturated, monounsaturated fats. fibre dairy products? VIt D,chromium, magnesium, zinc,
resistance : saturated fats (non dairy?) omega 3 polyunsaturated , simple sugars (fructose?)

(interesting about the omega 3, Fray actually says it was it was a weak association and : T , the undoubted other health benefits of fish or fish-oil intake in non-diabetic and diabetic [20, 21] people almost certainly outweigh this small effect
http://www.springerlink.com/content/441 ... ltext.html

 

[pianoman]

Many thanks Phoenix... that was more of what I was looking for.

 

[viviennem]

Thanks for the howstuffworks link, Phoenix. On the very last page of that is a link to one of the very best over-views of the Atkins Diet that I've ever read!

Viv 8)

 

[pianoman]

unfortunately I think too much of that knowledge has been overridden by economic considerations.

I'm not sure what you exactly mean here, can you expand a little more?

Just that science can show us many things. This study has answered some questions, and raised some new ones (just as good science should). But I am not so confident that what "science knows" translates into an healthier food supply. Decisions about what appears on the supermarket shelves are influenced more by government policies, economic considerations, special interest groups and marketing concerns than by a desire to offer the "best and healthiest food" which nutritional science (still in it's infancy) can devise for us. I think it is up to ourselves to become educated and become our own best advocates in this area.

 

[Etty]

He summarises his views in a seesaw diagram showing those dietary macronutrients and nutrients that may be implicated with insulin sensitiviy and those that may be implicated in resistance.
Senstivity : polyunsaturated, monounsaturated fats. fibre dairy products? VIt D,chromium, magnesium, zinc,
resistance : saturated fats (non dairy?) omega 3 polyunsaturated , simple sugars (fructose?)

(interesting about the omega 3, Fray actually says it was it was a weak association and :

PHoenix, on the sensitivity side of the seesaw, does "polyunsaturated" incorporate both omega 6 and 3? And were there other weak associations amongst the list? thanks