Why Not Insulin

sheepie123

Well-Known Member
Messages
106
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Hey,

I am wondering - Why does the Doctor not prescribe Insulin to a Type 2 diabetic with good control to allow their pancreas a rest or to at the very least reduce the blood sugar with a small long acting dose?

I have fairly good control but I am aware that my levels still get up as high as 7 or 8 so I know during these times my pancreas is working extremely hard. I wonder would a basal dose of Insulin not kick this back a bit and release some pressure.

I know that Type 2 a lot of it is down to Insulin Resistance but that makes no sense when possibly/eventually when our pancreas stops working we will need Insulin so how is it OK to take it when our pancreas is shot but not now?

To be honest I would rather a small dose after a meal if I know that its a particularly bad meal or if I cannot walk it off afterwards as then I am assured that my pancreas is not being hammered?
 
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Mep

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1,461
Type of diabetes
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Insulin
Yes that's a good point. Unfortunately my experience is that they waited for me to not produce the insulin I need to put me on insulin and of course at that stage there was no choice. The damage is done from overworking of the pancreas. The oral meds they put you on in particular stimulate the pancreas to produce more insulin so it overworks really. It would make better sense to preserve the function of the pancreas and help it instead. Although common sense doesn't always come in to play with treatment does it.
 

Art Of Flowers

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Messages
956
Type of diabetes
I reversed my Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Treating type 2 diabetes with insulin raises the risk of obesity, heart disease, strokes and liver disease. If you don't need to take insulin, you are much better off without it.
 
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ickihun

Master
Messages
13,698
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Type 2
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Insulin
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I'm so much less of risk to blindness, losing my feet and kidneys or liver all on controlled insulin. Oh my heart health too is supported by insulin treatment.
I have had diabetes, I believe, for 40yrs+. Mostly undiagnosed. Is it any surprise I'm 19st+ ???

I have fought my obesity all my life. I had burn out 3yrs ago. I ended up on insulin. I've never felt happier.
I fight it's use but deep down know how healthy I feel on the correct amount for reducing insulin resistance.
I'm losing weight on insulin treatment.
Strange don't you think?

I'm a great believer in a sufferer having the medication which stops blindness, amputations and organ damage. Not forgeting artery and nerve health.
 

mrbee

Member
Messages
9
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Insulin
I agree with both sheepie and ickihun, to some extent.

When I was first diagnosed, some years back, I had already been suffering from excessive thirst, weight gain, night sweats and other signs for some time, but the doc refused at first to actually test me as I was considered too young at the time...

When I finally got diagnosed, I began to read some very good articles (cannot remember where they were now as it was some time ago) about how newly diagnosed T2s could absolutely benefit from insulin as it gives their pancreas a chance to recover and basically not die off, there were of course other benefits associated with a short term treatment plan of this nature. I discussed the matter with my doc and he point blank refused, basically said, no way buddy, on yer bike, which of course annoyed me, because it made perfect sense to me, how dare they refuse to listen to sense.

Then, I started to learn about things like nutritional science, dieting, and more specifically, the 'diet' mind and mentality, and how people tend to not try so hard as they claim they are/have been, for example, you hear the 'I have tried every diet, nothing works for me...' line, and I learned all about why 'diets' fail, and why sometimes medicines appear to fail too.

As I learned more it became much clearer to me, at least in part, why they do not prescribe such a treatment path to folks at the outset, because in truth, at that point, most people would actually just stop trying, don't get me wrong, some folks would do well and most folks would be very sincere about it all, and at the outset would likely do very well, for a few weeks at least, but most would fall away and stop trying as their will and desire wanes, in the exact same way people fail on 'diets', and ultimately they would see none of the benefit attributed to a short term prescription of insulin and would then be on insulin far earlier, and at much greater cost to the health services.

I know this is not something we like to hear and is not something many folks would like to accept, and I even resented and resisted such thoughts and statements myself until I started taking courses on such subjects, for example, I used to baulk at the idea that the real reason I was obese was because I was plain old fashioned greedy. I had a plethora of reasons and excuses as to why it was not down to me. Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying the condition, treatments, medicines and so forth have no effect on this, but that I also knew I should not have been eating the extra big mac, or that choccie bar, but did it anyway after all, why bother, it was not my fault was it.

When I first went on insulin I gained almost 3 stone to an already 19st 7lbs, and I decided I needed to stop blaming stuff, stop blaming the nurse and doc for not understanding my plight, stop blaming my medications, stop blaming the diet, and anything else I could blame and decided I needed to accept the problem was a simple one, I was eating too much. So that's when I decided to embark on a learning curve of nutritional science and learn about foods, portion control, how food works and affects the body, how to understand the findings brought to light by nutritional studies, learned about the numerous myths and some downright lies with regards to food and health too.

With regard to the OPs question, there is some evidence to support such a practice, in clinical scenarios, just as for example, everyone, and I mean everyone, who was ever subjected to a calorie controlled/restricted diet in numerous studies, under controlled, clinical conditions, lost weight, however, there is swathe and raft of evidence that shows once those in-patients, became out-patients, the diets fail, they regain their weight.

Now this is despite them reporting that they were consuming the same number of calories and not over eating, but there is clear and strong evidence that people, either consciously or unconsciously, under report their consumption, the same happens with alcoholics too for example, and they begin to blame the 'diet' and resent the medical advice and then go looking for easy option to this complex issue.

When this cannot be found, of course, they turn to more and more exotic regimes and use these as proof that the science they have been advised to follow does not work, such as for example, the war on fats, the war on meat, the war on carbs, the war on whatever meets their criteria, and of course, for the most part, this is just not true. I know, have done all of these things myself, done everything from fasting to Atkins, and a few other mad diets too over the years.

I strongly suspect, this is exactly what would happen to many newly diagnosed T2s, they would simply stop trying and use the insulin as their crux, I mean, it is easy to stick another 10-16 units of Novo-Rapid in to cover that Big Mac I just ate rather than actually try to control myself a bit better, and I know this too, because I once did it regularly.

I have now lost the 3 stones because I realised, the common factor in all of this, was me, so I decided I needed to change my mindset so that I could change my lifestyle. I have a long way to go still but I do much better these days than I used to and have learned a huge amount along the way. I take less insulin than I did, due to eating better mainly, and I take less metformin too, and some days take no insulin at all if I have been particularly good with my foods, though my real issue, and always has been, I sometimes have very agressive and sometimes severe, sleep/nocturnal hypos/dawn phenomenon, and often wake up sweating, cold and shaky, and on rebound my blood can go from 4/5.x mmol to 13.x in the space of 4-6 hours, despite having eaten nothing for 8-12 hours, so it would appear at least my liver is working well.

My advice is always this, educate yourself whenever you can, read from conversant and reputable sources, do not just take it a gospel that Mr X knows his stuff because he says so, cross reference it, and think about the motives of people, you will often the 'experts' who scream the loudest and often by deriding the 'other' evidence, and somehow manage to drown out the voice of reason, usually have book or video to sell you or are looking to sell tickets to their next feel good show/venue and often you find they have no credentials in the subject matter at all and the evidence and information provided by the scientists, is generally free and available for you to read and take in.

Best wishes to all.
 
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luceeloo

Well-Known Member
Messages
677
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Insulin
In addition to what everyone else has said, unfortunately it's not that straight forward that us Type 2's can inject a small amount of insulin and be done with it.
I was started on insulin earlier this year, and actually, was quite looking forward to it because I believed that I'd have excellent control. This has not been the case, I'm extremely insulin resistant which means that my "small amount" is actually quite a large dose, and the downside is hunger and weight gain in exchange for a relatively small dent in my blood sugar numbers.
It's a trade off, and it's not a good one.
Dealing with the resistance is the key to Type 2, I believe.
 

JohnEGreen

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I agree with the philosophy of start with the least drastic option and then adjust if insufficient rather than the other way about, if you start with insulin where do you go from there just more and more of it?
 

ickihun

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13,698
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Type 2
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Insulin
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I like @mrbee . saw how badly controlled insulin treatment can cause weight gain.
I truely didnt first understand how the type1s used to get annoyed about insulin cause weight gain bad arguement.
It doesnt if its managed properly.
Or like mrbee and myself any weight first added is now been lost.
I'm lighter now than was when i started insulin treatment.
I'll soon be less weight than i was 11yrs ago, all on insulin treatment working for me, and my severe insulin resistance.

Insulin doesn't have to be abused or demonised.
 
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Art Of Flowers

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Messages
956
Type of diabetes
I reversed my Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
High blood sugar is a symptom of diabetes, not the cause. The cause is insulin resistance. If you take medication for type 2 diabetes, you need to address insulin resistance. Otherwise you can end up taking more and more medication. Many type 2 suffers start on Metformin, then have Sulfonylureas as well and end up on insulin and then more insulin.

Insulin causes excess blood glucose to be stored as fat and this ends up causing fatty liver and fatty pancreas. The fatty liver causes insulin resistance and the fatty pancreas reduces beta cell function. If you want to give your pancreas a break, then the last thing you want to do is to eat lots of carbs and take extra insulin to turn this into more fat which will further reduce beta cell function.

The solution is to create less blood glucose by eating a low carb diet and by fasting you can burn off the fat in the liver, which then improves insulin resistance and burn off the fat in the pancreas which improves beta cell function.
 

ringi

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,365
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Sulfonylureas(Glipizide) have most of the same problems as taking insulin.

The only two drugs I know of that reduce insulin resistance in a useful way are Metformin and SGLT2 inhibitors(Forxiga) There are a few drugs that stop us adsorbing carbs, but I question if they are better then just not eating the carbs.

Research is starting to show the BG levels are not a good predictor of outcomes with diabetes if the BG levels are controlled with drugs other then Metformin and SGLT2 inhibitors(Forxiga). Some people go as far us to say that the only benefit of the other drugs is to make the doctor feel happy as the numbers are "better" on his/her computer.....

Clearly very high BG levels must be controlled to protect the eyes etc using whatever brings them down, but too high a level of insulin in our bodies is as harmful as too high a level of BG.
 

ickihun

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13,698
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Sulfonylureas(Glipizide) have most of the same problems as taking insulin.

The only two drugs I know of that reduce insulin resistance in a useful way are Metformin and SGLT2 inhibitors(Forxiga) There are a few drugs that stop us adsorbing carbs, but I question if they are better then just not eating the carbs.

Research is starting to show the BG levels are not a good predictor of outcomes with diabetes if the BG levels are controlled with drugs other then Metformin and SGLT2 inhibitors(Forxiga). Some people go as far us to say that the only benefit of the other drugs is to make the doctor feel happy as the numbers are "better" on his/her computer.....

Clearly very high BG levels must be controlled to protect the eyes etc using whatever brings them down, but too high a level of insulin in our bodies is as harmful as too high a level of BG.
Sorry @ringi how does forxiga reduce insulin resistance?
The one person I know on it long term still takes the same amount of insulin injection units and carbs. They haven't reduced their insulin resistance, at all.
Editted to add. Nor lost weight.
 
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Bluetit1802

Legend
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25,216
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The first thing to determine is the amount of natural insulin we produce.

If this is a normal amount, but we see high blood glucose levels, then this natural insulin is swimming against the tide trying to insert glucose into our cells but the cells are rejecting it. This is what insulin resistance is. So, what is the point in introducing injected insulin ontop of our natural insulin? It also will get rejected and will end up saturating our blood stream and storing fat. We will still see higher BS levels and insulin resistance will worsen. The best way to reduce IR is to reduce the amount of insulin required, and the best way to do that is to eat less carbs..

If it happens our natural insulin is low it is a different matter, but even then, if we have severe insulin resistance the doses of injected insulin will be much more than "a small dose".

@sheepie123 am I right in thinking you have asked this question before?
 
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ringi

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,365
Type of diabetes
Type 2
(Firstly forxiga is only approved for use in Type2 – sometimes it is used “of label” with Type1 at the consultant’s risk.)

Forxigais a tablet medication which helps to reduce blood glucose levels by helping (forcing!) the kidneys to remove glucose from the blood and excrete it within urine.

In a “normal” Type2 having less glucose in the blood will result in their pancreas producing less insulin. Insulin resistance is the body protecting itself from having too much insulin in the blood, so learning to ignore some of the insulin. Therefore by reducing the insulin the pancreas produces the level of insulin resistance will slowly reduce. This depend on the BG being well enough controlled just with diet and Forziga (and maybe Metformin) for it to be in “normal ranges” for a lot of the day.

@ickihun, I expect the person you know has too high a level of insulin in their blood for insulin resistance to reduce, but the Forxigis may have avoided them needing to increase their insulin dose as the pancreas gives up.

There is one big risk with Forxigias, you can not rule out Diabetic Ketoacidosis based on BG not being very high and hence a blood gas test must be done if someone is showing other indications of Diabetic Ketoacidosis.
 
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ickihun

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13,698
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Type 2
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Insulin
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I've come to the conclusion I'm not as insulin resistant as people think.
How can I go from 300 insulin units to 142units if I'm severely insulin resistant. No extra exercise or less calories.

Eating low carb helps with insulin resistance.
IR is where the insulin (whether own or injected) cannot get converted due to the wrong fat cells. Not amount as suggested by 600cals newcastle diet but wrong fat cells. Inflammation plays a huge part in the digestive system. For me I have too much uptake into my fatty liver and other organs and muscles. Most argue from not a low enough carb diet. Too low a carb diet gives me nerve problems. Twitches and no smooth movements. Fast heart beats (palpatations in rest) and more inflammation. Asthma has been triggered in me from a very low carb diet. I stick with 100-150g carb per day now. Insulin has to cover it as metformin cannot and I have bad side affects from other type2 diabetic meds.
I am working on reducing the making of the wrong fat cells and emptying the current fat cells or converting them with metformin, fingers crossed. Exercise and metformin together reduces IR quicker than just exercise or just metformin. For me.
 
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Bluetit1802

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IR is where the insulin (whether own or injected) cannot get converted due to the wrong fat cells. Not amount as suggested by 600cals newcastle diet but wrong fat cells.

Insulin resistance is what it says. Insulin pushes glucose into our muscle cells for energy. When there is too much glucose the cells reject it because they have sufficient fr their needs. The glucose and insulin are left swimming about. Additional insulin will not help very much. Less glucose will.
 
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ickihun

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Oh. So that explains how none obese sufferers can be interferred with IR too.
So why all the emphasis on it being internal and external fat which causes IR?

My specialist believes IR improves on fat/bmi weight loss. Muscle and fat. I guess.
Weight loss specialist (surgeons and dieticians) believe the same.
Well, for me.
 

ringi

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Messages
3,365
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Having fat on the liver reduces how much glucose the liver can take up, external fat is a predictor of this. Losing the fat from the Liver improves insulin resistance.

It is very hard for anyone with insulin resistance to lose weight without breaking the cycle of insulin resistance hence if someone loses weight then IR is very likely to have improved. The actions you have to take to lose weight are the same as the actions to break the cycle of IR.

Increased muscle mass improves IR, but most people lose more in fat then they gain in muscle, hence once again losing weight is a good predictor of outcome when you study a large group of people.

Insulin resistance effect different parts of the body in different ways, I expect there will be some Nobel prizes given out when someone works out all the details........
 

sheepie123

Well-Known Member
Messages
106
Type of diabetes
Type 2
I understand this but then given that some T2 end up on Insulin why not allow them to take long acting as lets face it if you were stable for many years then your pancreas might not give up and complications would also be kept to a minimum.

My levels reside around 4.5 - 6 and 7 - 8 30 mins to 1 hr after meals - When my fasting goes closer to 7 on average I will consider surgery or Insulin or a GLP4 Inhibitor. I think pushing the pancreas to make more is the wrong approach and after all its my body and my life. My doctor probably wont live with the complications I have form this disease and as such is not qualified to tell me what I feel is best.
 
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ringi

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Messages
3,365
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Remember that high level of insulin is the main reason we are at greater risk of hart issues and strokes. I am not convinced that it is worth increasing our insulin levels to even more above what is normal just to keep BG to below 7. Hence one of the reasons I think fasting insulin levels should be a standard test. (I think LP4 Inhibitor make the pancrese produce more insulin, but I not read much on that class of drugs.)

(Forxigias would be my choose if I could no longer control with low carb and my insulin levels were still clearly above normal. If my insulin levels were clearly below normal, then I think long acting insulin would by my choose.)
 

leslie10152

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,110
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Insulin
Dislikes
Ignorance
Hey,

I am wondering - Why does the Doctor not prescribe Insulin to a Type 2 diabetic with good control to allow their pancreas a rest or to at the very least reduce the blood sugar with a small long acting dose?

I have fairly good control but I am aware that my levels still get up as high as 7 or 8 so I know during these times my pancreas is working extremely hard. I wonder would a basal dose of Insulin not kick this back a bit and release some pressure.

I know that Type 2 a lot of it is down to Insulin Resistance but that makes no sense when possibly/eventually when our pancreas stops working we will need Insulin so how is it OK to take it when our pancreas is shot but not now?

To be honest I would rather a small dose after a meal if I know that its a particularly bad meal or if I cannot walk it off afterwards as then I am assured that my pancreas is not being hammered?
Hi @sheepie123, when I was first diagnosed, the condition had gone extreme, so I had no choice but to go straight onto insulin. I sometimes ask myself that same question, but I am not medically trained so I can't answer that.