Dawn Phenominum

[PenguinMum]

After a careful day yesterday with good results went to bed on a 6. First test this morning was highest ever at 9. Am really struggling to eat a carb free breakfast which isnt eggs. I have tried just coffee and cream but I hate cream. Like to have a cup of tea with miniscule milk when I get up. Anyway this morning had 2 inches of cheese with my tea. Dont know if that was the right thing to do or not but it felt very odd. Btw I just came downstairs to make tea straight from my bed.

 

[ixi1429]

Morning,

Does your BG normally drop off later in the day?

Its not quite carb free but 100g strawberries and Greek yoghurt, that will come in alittle higher at about 8g's

I normally eat Scrambled egss with a knob of butter, then add in Cheese and or ham and chopped spring onions, chillies and corriander...makes it tate better (not that scrambled eggs don;t taste nice).

On a weekend, Inormally make a fry up - Fried egss (I calculate 1 g carb per egg) bacon (essnetially cab free) and Naked (brand name) sausages which are 0.5-1g. If I am feeling hungry I sometimes add in mushrooms fried in butter which is either 0g (according to theCarbs and Cal book) or around 8g per 100g according to other websites.

 

[PenguinMum]

Hi its me again. I am now over 3 months since diagnosis and have got my HBA1C down from 53 to 41 which is great. However I am still struggling with high readings in the morning high 8s or 9 after good readings (6 or less) night before. I cannot eat cooked food in the morning but do need something so now have a cheese scone (3g carb) with butter and tea which satisfies me. At start of eat it is consistently high 8 or 9. 2 hours later is up less than 1. On the face of it to me a satisfactory breakfast.
I know you advised me to give it time to settle but how long should I give it? I opted out of Metformin when it was offered to me but now I wonder if that might help? I have seen several comments on here recently saying Metformin is very helpful with DP. I still would rather not take it though after a lifetime of IBS but my diabetes is the most important issue right now. Will it improve? What should I do?

 

[Bluetit1802]

It can take a long time for DP to disappear. It is telling you that you are still suffering with insulin resistance and/or a fatty liver.
Because you are getting these high morning numbers, when you get out of bed and wash your hands before testing, are you starting to feel anxious and stressed about what the levels will be? That in itself can cause them to rise. Maybe it is time to stop your fasting test and concentrate on other times of the day, just for the time being, or cut down and only do it once a month or once a week.

Your 3g carb breakfast sounds fine to me.

Metformin can help with the liver dumps. I believe that is its main job, although to what extent it helps I have no idea. I think it may differ from person to person. You have done brilliantly without it, but it is up to you if you ask your nurse to prescribe it for you. Of course, she may be reluctant to do so.

 

[PenguinMum]

It can take a long time for DP to disappear. It is telling you that you are still suffering with insulin resistance and/or a fatty liver.
Because you are getting these high morning numbers, when you get out of bed and wash your hands before testing, are you starting to feel anxious and stressed about what the levels will be? That in itself can cause them to rise. Maybe it is time to stop your fasting test and concentrate on other times of the day, just for the time being, or cut down and only do it once a month or once a week.

Your 3g carb breakfast sounds fine to me.

Metformin can help with the liver dumps. I believe that is its main job, although to what extent it helps I have no idea. I think it may differ from person to person. You have done brilliantly without it, but it is up to you if you ask your nurse to prescribe it for you. Of course, she may be reluctant to do so.

Thanks Bluetit. I have just got back from DN and didnt ask this question in time. However, I am reluctant to take meds if I can manage it without so I will persevere for another quarter. Review again in June, my choice. She was very impressed with my latest HBA1c though. I take on board what you say about not testing in the morning. I dont think I am anxious really, its just my routine testing at start of breakfast. So maybe I will only test mornings if I eat something else. Trust me to have a stubborn liver!

 

[PenguinMum]

Forgot to say that DN remarked cholesterel levels of concern. I said they have improved and then she checked screen to see that. Oh you’re not keen on statins are you she said. I replied well since they are improving lets just wait and see.

 

[Bluetit1802]

I dont think I am anxious really, its just my routine testing at start of breakfast.

Are you saying you take your fasting reading after getting up and making breakfast, or do you test as soon as you get out of bed?

 

[PenguinMum]

Are you saying you take your fasting reading after getting up and making breakfast, or do you test as soon as you get out of bed?

Yes thats what I am saying. I get up at 8, test and start eating at 8.30am.

 

[Crocodile]

@PenguinMum
I had this problem a while ago. Don't know if this will work for you as it did me but worth a shot. I now have a small snack immediately before bed. Nothing big, just a few slices of ham or salami with cheese and a bit of tomato or an olive. It has been working well for me. Morning BGs now low 5s.
Glenn

 

[Bluetit1802]

Yes thats what I am saying. I get up at 8, test and start eating at 8.30am.

That is the best way. I did wonder if you waited a while before testing, eg until breakfast was ready, but obviously you don't!

 

[PenguinMum]

That is the best way. I did wonder if you waited a while before testing, eg until breakfast was ready, but obviously you don't!

Sorry didnt word that properly. I get up at 8 and dont test till I sit down to eat at 8.30am. Is this wrong?

 

[kokhongw]

Another way to look at DP is how Dr Jason Fung so elegantly put it.

https://idmprogram.com/dawn-phenomenon-t2d-8/

Think about it this way. The Dawn Phenomenon is simply moving sugar from body stores (liver) into the blood. That’s it. If your body stores are filled to bursting, then you will expel as much of that sugar as possible. By itself it is neither good nor bad. It is simply a marker that your body has too much sugar. Solution? Simple. Either don’t put any sugar in (LCHF) or burn it off (Fasting). Even better? LCHF + IF.

Dinner fast may be the most effective method to clear both liver glycogen store and brain amyloid plaques. So that is something you may want to consider.

 

[PenguinMum]

Another way to look at DP is how Dr Jason Fung so elegantly put it.

https://idmprogram.com/dawn-phenomenon-t2d-8/



Dinner fast may be the most effective method to clear both liver glycogen store and brain amyloid plaques. So that is something you may want to consider.

Thank you for reply. Dinner fast would be hard for me and my BG is usually in the low 5s region pre dinner. It seems my BG rises all morning and then from 2pm drops. I can easily miss lunch but I would struggle to fast all morning. I have been trying to get a breakfast I like (and can manage to sustain) with low or no carbs and my ho emade cheese scone at 3g fits the brief.

 

[Bluetit1802]

Sorry didnt word that properly. I get up at 8 and dont test till I sit down to eat at 8.30am. Is this wrong?

That could be one reason why you are still higher than you want to be.

The act of coming down stairs, making breakfast, having a wash, getting dressed, rushing about, will all add to raised levels and liver dumps. A true fasting reading is taken immediately you get out of bed (after washing hands) and before doing anything else. Have a go tomorrow and see what happens. Let us know!

 

[kokhongw]

Yes. Dinner fast does require some efforts. But the results are always encouraging.

 

[PenguinMum]

@PenguinMum
I had this problem a while ago. Don't know if this will work for you as it did me but worth a shot. I now have a small snack immediately before bed. Nothing big, just a few slices of ham or salami with cheese and a bit of tomato or an olive. It has been working well for me. Morning BGs now low 5s.
Glenn

Thanks for your reply. I eat supper at 8pm and go to bed around 10.30pm so what you describe as a bedtime snack is like a meal to me. I am glad you have found a way round it. I need to find a way that works for me.

 

[Bluetit1802]

Yes. Dinner fast does require some efforts. But the results are always encouraging.

For some people it is difficult because of family considerations. In my house, dinner is always round the table, and always a time for conversation. It is part of our married life. I have no need to fast, but if I had, it would be impossible to leave out dinner unless I sat there throughout with a glass of water. I can guarantee it would last a day, or probably not even that.

 

[kokhongw]

I can guarantee it would last a day, or probably not even that.

Actually you would only need a dinner or two to see the improvements...then decide if it is all worth it...

 

[Bluetit1802]

Actually you would only need a dinner or two to see the improvements...then decide if it is all worth it...

Someone else maybe.

I don't need to go to extraordinary lengths. I eat 2 meals in a 6 or 7 hour window because that suits my lifestyle, and it isn't a true fast because I have coffee and cream! I don't have any dawn phenomenon, don't need to lose weight, and have normal BS levels. I was just trying to point out that skipping dinner isn't for everyone.

 

[PenguinMum]

That could be one reason why you are still higher than you want to be.

The act of coming down stairs, making breakfast, having a wash, getting dressed, rushing about, will all add to raised levels and liver dumps. A true fasting reading is taken immediately you get out of bed (after washing hands) and before doing anything else. Have a go tomorrow and see what happens. Let us know!

Thanks Bluetit. I will bring my kit up with me tonight. So if I test at 8 should I test again half an hour later before I eat?