Thiamine deficiency in diabetics

[howie]

i'm sure most of you have heard this but for any who haven't. according to Warwick Uni diabetics generally have 75% thiamine deficiency, well 70-90% of us. the 30-10% who don't may be those who stay complication free. (along with good BG control of course). human studies aren't proven yet but rats are.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7796073.stm

http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/newsandevents ... /thiamine/

 

[janabelle]

Hi Howie
I've been taking a high dose B1 supplement for 2 years now, since my husband told me about that study. I take it every second day. Thamine, vitamin B! is water soluble, so can't be overdosed on apparently.
I think it's worth taking,can't do any harm and it's not that expensive in a well known high street health food shop!
Jus

 

[howie]

yeah exactly you're right,

how high dose do you take? i heard it could or should be up to 16 times more than RDA lol, if they were to do it on the NHS. also isn't the fat soluble one supposed to be better?

all best,
howie

 

[Dillinger]

I've taken Thiamine since this study came out; and my kidneys are looking good.

By the way; I like the bit from DUK in the piece - "although 70-90% of you may have a deficiency and supplements appear to greatly improve your kidney health and are cheap and not harmful DON'T TAKE THEM".... :roll: What have these people got against diabetics... :?

 

[howie]

as far as i can tell we're waiting for approval of 'benfotiamine' a fat soluble and longer lasting synthetic. apparently the reason for it being held back is that 'they' cannot decide whether it is a medicine or a vitamin!!!! *** that's the most stupid thing i've ever heard, get it out and worry about that later.

suppose i'll get the water soluble like you guys till then.

howie.

 

[janabelle]

I take a 100mg B1 tablet from that store I didn't mention! I've never seen a liquid of it, anyone know where to get it?
Jus

 

[hanadr]

T1 husband has been taking Benfotiamine, ever since Bernstein told me about it. It costs more than the usual Thiamine, but with Chronic Kidney disease, It's worth it
As Iposted yesterday, the CKDseems to be improving. I'd put it down to VERY tight BG control.

 

[howie]

yeah i have just been reading that Benfotiamine is the way and Thiamine supplements don't make too much difference. do you think the Benfotiamine can stop it things from getting worse?

 

[Soundgen]

I'm a newly diagnosed type 2 diabetic and started taking Benfotaimine as soon as I knew , it reduces by blood sugar to normal , if I stop taking it my blood sugar goes up , start again it goes down , see viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9454
if you haven't already for my experience and lots of benfotiamine links by myself and others

 

[goji]

as far as i can tell we're waiting for approval of 'benfotiamine' a fat soluble and longer lasting synthetic. apparently the reason for it being held back is that 'they' cannot decide whether it is a medicine or a vitamin!!!! *** that's the most stupid thing i've ever heard, get it out and worry about that later.

Did you read that somewhere Howie? I'd be interested to see any more info you have. I'm taking benfotiamine (imported from the States). It is quite expensive. If we could eventually get it on the NHS that would be great. I don't see why it would matter to them whether it's classed as a vitamin or a medication. B12 is a vitamin but for people with vitamin B12 deficiency - they get free shots on the NHS. Apparently, in Germany, Drs have been prescribing Benfotiamine for years to help prevent or treat diabetic complications - maybe we should all head out to Germany for our healthcare!!

 

[yipster29]

Hi Howie

Newbie T1 and didn't know so I'm off down the health food shop lunchtime... thanks!

 

[Bombjack]

I know this is a zombie thread, but it popped up in my Google search results, so I thought I'd add an update.

I stopped taking Benfotiamine a few years ago, as it didn't do well in 3 human clinical trials (the Groningen, Melbourne and Oslo studies). Thiamine supplementation was found to provide benefits, whereas Benfotiamine was not.

In a 2010 article by Thornally & Rabbani, they stated:

"Dissimilarities in the effects of Benfotiamine compared to Thiamine are as follows:

1) Failure to correct dislipidaemia in experimental diabetes;
2) Less effective at decreasing exposure to the major AGE, MG-H1;
3) Loading of tissues with TMP.

The latter feature may underlie the decreased effectiveness of Benfotiamine as high tissue levels of TMP inhibit TPPK."

So, just a warning to people who may come across this thread - you are probably better sticking with high dose Thiamine, rather than Benfo.

 

[Fairygodmother]

Thiamine’s present in a wide variety of food:
https://www.dietitians.ca/Your-Heal...ins/Food-Sources-of-Thiamin-(Vitamin-B1).aspx
Maybe those of us who live a long time with T1 and T2 and escape complications like marmite, pulses and eggs.

 

[LooperCat]

Thiamine’s present in a wide variety of food:
https://www.dietitians.ca/Your-Heal...ins/Food-Sources-of-Thiamin-(Vitamin-B1).aspx
Maybe those of us who live a long time with T1 and T2 and escape complications like marmite, pulses and eggs.

I have a couple of bulletproof marmite drinks every day. I have a pint mug, put a heaped teaspoon of marmite and a tablespoon of butter in the bottom, fill it about a quarter of the way with boiling water and blitz that with a stick blender, then top it up with water. It’s a good keto meal

 

[BrianTheElder]

Thiamine’s present in a wide variety of food:
https://www.dietitians.ca/Your-Heal...ins/Food-Sources-of-Thiamin-(Vitamin-B1).aspx
Maybe those of us who live a long time with T1 and T2 and escape complications like marmite, pulses and eggs.

Hi @Fairygodmother Thanks for the link, from which I see
"Thiamin’s main role is to help your body use carbohydrates and protein to make energy."
So, of limited use on a ketogenic diet? But perhaps it's good for other stuff?

 

[Fairygodmother]

Hi @Fairygodmother Thanks for the link, from which I see
"Thiamin’s main role is to help your body use carbohydrates and protein to make energy."
So, of limited use on a ketogenic diet? But perhaps it's good for other stuff?

Maybe. However, many of we T1s eat carbs so thiamine’s good for us. Turning the protein in a Keto diet into energy may also benefit from Thiamine. I’m not sure if it’s part of the process of turning fats into energy, it’d be worth more investigation.

 

[Bombjack]

"But perhaps it's good for other stuff?"

In diabetes, as I understand it, Thiamine is metabolised to be a co-factor of the enzyme Transketolase (TK). This can activate the Pentose-Phosphate pathway, which is a pathway in the body which is not implicated in Diabetic complications.

In this diagram, if you imagine an arrow leading left from "Glucose 6-P," that would be the Pentose-Phosphate pathway. If Sugars are being moved into the PPP at this stage, there will be fewer entering the lower three damaging pathways (Hexosamine, Protein Kinase-C & AGE).

But TK requires Thiamine to work. Human clinical trials have used large doses (100mg 3 times daily in one study). I doubt it's possible for a diabetic to get enough through diet alone, to make a difference.

 

[Fairygodmother]

I was hoping there was a scientist somewhere on the forum who could explain. I’m not sufficiently up on bio-chem to translate the diagram but your explanation’s really clear @Bombjack. Does this mean that it would benefit everyone, and especially those with all kinds of diabetes, to take extra thiamine, or are there possible side effects?

 

[Bombjack]

I was hoping there was a scientist somewhere on the forum who could explain. I’m not sufficiently up on bio-chem to translate the diagram but your explanation’s really clear @Bombjack. Does this mean that it would benefit everyone, and especially those with all kinds of diabetes, to take extra thiamine, or are there possible side effects?

@Fairygodmother. Hi, I'm just a layman, but have been doing a lot of reading around the diabetic pathways, and looking at what supplementation could possibly do to minimise the damage each one does. I started taking Benfotiamine around 10 years ago when I first heard about Thornalley's work with Thiamine, but switched to Thiamine when the clinical trial results came through.

As for Thiamine, Thornalley and others discovered that Diabetics are deficient. The mechanism seems to be increased renal clearance (30x normal). This could be because kidneys under higher-than-normal sugar loads are less able to reclaim thiamine before it's expelled in the urine. There's just something about the diabetic state that causes this I think, but I'm not sure anyone has answered it yet.

My thinking on this would be no Thiamine = no Pentose-Phosphate pathway = more sugar passing through the bottom 3 harmful pathways. How much of a difference would it actually make? We don't know. The clinical trials for Thiamine have been concentrated on the kidneys, where it seems to have a large positive benefit.

Side effects of Thiamine? None that I have noticed (and I take a massive dose). But if anyone knows of studies that show adverse effects of Thiamine, I'm happy to learn about it!

 

[Fairygodmother]

@Fairygodmother. Hi, I'm just a layman, but have been doing a lot of reading around the diabetic pathways, and looking at what supplementation could possibly do to minimise the damage each one does. I started taking Benfotiamine around 10 years ago when I first heard about Thornalley's work with Thiamine, but switched to Thiamine when the clinical trial results came through.

As for Thiamine, Thornalley and others discovered that Diabetics are deficient. The mechanism seems to be increased renal clearance (30x normal). This could be because kidneys under higher-than-normal sugar loads are less able to reclaim thiamine before it's expelled in the urine. There's just something about the diabetic state that causes this I think, but I'm not sure anyone has answered it yet.

My thinking on this would be no Thiamine = no Pentose-Phosphate pathway = more sugar passing through the bottom 3 harmful pathways. How much of a difference would it actually make? We don't know. The clinical trials for Thiamine have been concentrated on the kidneys, where it seems to have a large positive benefit.

Side effects of Thiamine? None that I have noticed (and I take a massive dose). But if anyone knows of studies that show adverse effects of Thiamine, I'm happy to learn about it!

I think I may follow suit. I used to see it listed on food contents but now that the main focus is Cals, fats, protein, carb etc it seems fewer products list minerals and vitamins. I’ll still be eating marmite and pulses too!
I’m impressed by your research! I did see that an overdose of thiamine’s just peed away so maybe if we all dose up it’ll enter the water supply, everyone benefits