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I'd like to see starvation diets having a place in NHS support for obese type2s.
- Thread starter ickihun
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PenguinMum
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What I would like to see is Food Science and Dietary Info (call it what you like) compulsory in schools at least 3 lessons a week so at least as future adults and parents they have some knowledge to fall back on (if they choose to). I thought I was well informed but since I joined the forum I have found out so much I never knew.
AdamJames
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Definitely. I'd give anything to be able to go back in time and know then what I know now. Prevention is sooooooooooooo much easier than the cure for something like this.
archersuz
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I went in Sainsbury yesterday and I had a sample of Magnum ice cream thrust at me - I had to say no politely and I really wanted to scream at the stupid woman. People think you're odd if you refuse something like that!
archersuz
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They do have 'healthy eating' drummed into them - but what use is the official line on 'healthy eating'. Our vending machines have milk shakes in them - just smaller bottles. As a coach I have studied and advised on nutrition but I now can't and don't practice what I preach ie graze on complex carbs all day.
archersuz
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I had a warning 22 years ago when I had gestational diabetes - did I change my ways???? Slightly yes, but by following a low fat low calorie diet. I didn't exercise enough and I put on weight. look where I am now - knowledge is empowering but only if you act on it.
edit to change that last sentence to" knowledge is empowering but only if you CHOOSE to act on it"
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AdamJames
Well-Known Member
True, even as I wrote that I was questioning myself: if I went back in time armed with knowledge, but still was surrounded by the 'bad but highly addictive food environment', would I have resisted? Possibly a bit more, but possibly not enough. Alcohol, crisps, pies, cake and burgers are just so moreish and fattening and bad for the metabolism.
I don't normally like the idea of a nanny state, but really, I'd rather not have ever had the choice to eat all that stuff.
D
Deleted member 308541
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Bobby Sands fasted for 66 days before he died of starvation in prison.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Sands
ickihun
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I'd like the nhs to make a start, at least to solving 2 elements.
Weight loss.... however way (we are all different).
Then maintenance to prevent obesity returning or becoming soooo dangerous and life threatening.
Starvation diet..... to starve the body from nutrients and forcing fat burning.
Supplements to prevent death.
Until no longer obese. Then maintenance.
Society is slowly snubbing fast foods and processed foods.
Not fast even for me.... I'm afraid.
Obese type2s need help now.
We are the exception, we members.
Low carb is a brilliant aid.
Even that would be something for the nhs to embrace.
Anything would be good, eh?
Weight loss.... however way (we are all different).
Then maintenance to prevent obesity returning or becoming soooo dangerous and life threatening.
Starvation diet..... to starve the body from nutrients and forcing fat burning.
Supplements to prevent death.
Until no longer obese. Then maintenance.
Society is slowly snubbing fast foods and processed foods.
Not fast even for me.... I'm afraid.
Obese type2s need help now.
We are the exception, we members.
Low carb is a brilliant aid.
Even that would be something for the nhs to embrace.
Anything would be good, eh?
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As someone who, for years, earned my living by working in Change, one of the things I learned is that for the vast majority of people change is easier and sustrained, if they clearly see the downside of not changing. Sadly, the prospect of maybe, possible or potentially becoming diabetic, or having our health harmed isn't enough, because clearly there'e the other side of those potential statistics.
In this country, there must be very, very, very few people who don't know that carrying a few extra pounds isn't doing anyone any good, but whilst "it's not harming us" (in parenthisis because how do we know it's not harming us in the background), we don't change.
I know and knew all of this, and yet I had, ahem, love handles, on diagnosis, but had I really set out to get rid of them? No I hadn't. In the scheme of things, living a crazy hectic life, and working very hard, it just didn't ever reach the top of my list of priorities.
For me, on diagnosis, my primary aim was to get my numbers into line, with any resultant weight loss being a bit of a bonus. I got skinny along the way, which obviously was a bit helpful (except to the wallet!).
Just to add that weight loss is is a real, real challenge for some folks, so please don't think I'm saying that I didn't have to try so others should find it easy.
If I'd had my time over again, would I have lived it any differently? I honestly doubt it.
So you still haven't defined exactly what you mean by a "starvation" diet.
Robinredbreast
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Oh dear, she really trusted it at you ? ! surely that shouldn't of happened, asking, yes, but not forcibly
DavidGrahamJones
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As treatment for obesity, type II diabetes, or both? Just asking. LOL
If you read the principles and guidelines of the NHS (https://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/thenhs/about/Pages/nhscoreprinciples.aspx) there's probably several things in there that would not be served by "starving" patients.
Our Health Service gives us sticking plasters for whatever we have, sometimes essential but sometimes I wish they'd do more to discover what was causing the problem in the first place, especially when it comes to weight issues. I was told that I had to consider bariatric surgery before the cause of my weight gain and difficulty in losing weight would be investigated, I remember the doctor using the phrase "so we can tick all the boxes". I was seen by a psychiatrist and a dietician who decided that I was not suitable for surgery because I had a weight problem and not an eating problem. Although that was one possible cause out of the way, that's where the investigations stopped.
It has taken me several years and many blood tests, urine samples and poo samples to discover some of what might be causing the problem. These things are all related to some degree but all affect the metabolism.
Insulin resistance therefore higher levels of insulin (the fat storing hormone).
Higher levels of cortisone
Higher levels of estrogen
Fatty Liver
Poor sleep
Stress
Poor gut diversity
The NHS didn't have the resources to help me establish what might be going on in, but initially they were happy to potentially provide surgery. Surgery may be the solution for some, but not me. I would have hated to have had surgery and then find little or no weight loss. So, I'd rather not see the NHS considering starvation for any reason, it may help weight loss in the short term, but probably not in the long term. I'd sooner they actually did more to establish where the problem actually lies.
ickihun
Master
Well obese patients would also benefit but since type2 is bankrupting nhs they might have to make an exception or do what they are doing now. Stick plastering like @DavidGrahamJones is fully aware of. Me too.
I will lose weight on bariatric surgery as I will be eating differently.
Loads of patients(in the US too) think after op it's eat again like before, whenever body allows it. I'm horrified by mostly US patients operated on and then left to own devices. Which ends up weight all being readded.
I will lose weight on bariatric surgery as I will be eating differently.
Loads of patients(in the US too) think after op it's eat again like before, whenever body allows it. I'm horrified by mostly US patients operated on and then left to own devices. Which ends up weight all being readded.
ickihun
Master
I guess individual like we're finding low carb diets.
Once the body thinks its being starved it acts differently. As fasts are proving.
However because all different my starvation would be different to yours. Mine would be quick to do as I was borderlining on it anyway. Someone highly stocked up in nutrients and fat won't starve. However they have to be together. A fat person can starve to death. Morbidly obese ones too.
Its what's NOT going in to feed that particular body size/needs which causes starvation. Any weight loss diet..... aims to starve the body to lose weight. True?
Guzzler
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No. Weight loss diets 'try' to force the body to give up and use its stores of energy. Starvation is the acute, critical lack of or absence of nutrients. There is a huge difference.
Sorry @ickihun , I don't agree with you. I had post natal depression with my 2nd child and fed him myself. I had no appetite and usually had less then 1000 cals a day , most of which was probably used by him. I lost weight until I stopped feeding him when he was 14 months old, then the weight piled back on. It's still here. Starvation diets slow down the metabolism and long term do harm. I am not talking about fasting, that's fine and can fit in with a decent healthy dietary plan. I am talking about the 'stave till you're slim like everyone else' mentality. That way of thinking just punishes the obese person and puts the blame on them, not great when being obese is a depressing state to be in in the first place. We need to talk about nourishment, not diets. When the body is properly nourished it is more likely to function properly.
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Well this explain all I did 6 Months of 1000 calories , but regained the 20 of the 35 kg , and now strugling to lose again , okay I have artificial metabolism by needing to take eltroxin daily and right after my weightloss my GP put my metabolism Down
I have gone back to normal now but cant lose weight anymore on like 1500 calories , and another 6 months of 1000 calories is just too annoying to do again But going 20 grams of carbs daily is also NOT easy to force myself to do now , but guess it Will be the low carb High fat road I need to go
Well this explain all I did 6 Months of 1000 calories , but regained the 20 of the 35 kg , and now strugling to lose again , okay I have artificial metabolism by needing to take eltroxin daily and right after my weightloss my GP put my metabolism DownI have gone back to normal now but cant lose weight anymore on like 1500 calories , and another 6 months of 1000 calories is just too annoying to do again
But going 20 grams of carbs daily is also NOT easy to force myself to do now , but guess it Will be the low carb High fat road I need to go
Yes.
And the irony is that this information has been widely available for the last 70 years, yet we still get told that going low calorie and adding in exercise will be good for us.
I wrecked my metabolism decades ago, doing one of the Eat Less Move More diet and exercise regimes. It was the Cambridge Diet.
And I have been paying for that teenage mistake for the last 30 years with a metabolism that effortlessly tailors its energy usage to the number of calories I eat. So I can drop my intake from 2,000+ calories to 1,000 and within a week my body stops losing weight. Exercise makes things worse, in that my body just gets more efficient at economy.
I find that if I eat very low carb I can eat plenty of delicious food (over 2,000 calories) and never be hungry. My weight won't increase, but I don't lose weight either.
The more I learn about fasting, the more I think that if I want to lose weight (it isn't a high priority) I will either need to do extended fasts (more than 3 days at a time), or I will have to eat a lot, over a very extended period, to try and push my metabolism up, and then fast for extended periods.
(Edited to add: Please note that Fasting actually increases the metabolic rate, after around 3 days with no food, whereas reduced calorie 'starvation diets' are proven to decrease metabolic rate over time. References available, but the best source I know for the science of this is Fung's blog Intensive Dietary Management)
I certainly think that 'starvation diets' are appallingly unhelpful, damaging and that it is verging on malpractice for anyone (including the NHS) to be promoting them.
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Totally agree. I did similar sorts of diets to you to try to lose weight with similar results.
