The food of life, or, Brother, Can You Spare a Pancreas?

[Truffle]

When I feel deprived I just make the most luxurious meal I can think of - cauliflower puree with scallops and bacon or if the purse will allow, steak with large prawns in garlic butter. Beef stroganoff with asparagus instead of rice even froie gras for those that like it. All these sorts of meals are ok and feel decadent.
Last night my husband and son ate southern coated chicken pieces with pasta parcels in pesto and broccoli. I had lightly poached smoked haddock with spinach, butter and garlic and you know what.... I wasn't even slightly envious!

I do however really miss warm bread dripping in butter straight from the oven and warm home-cooked doughnuts oozing with jam!

 

[kesun]

I don't know if the stance that many diabetics take that "carbs are evil" is an act of self-preservation, or a sincere article of faith, but for me, the problem is simply that my pancreas is broken.

Touchett, I think there are two different issues here, both of which diabetics have to struggle with. The first is the "blame the victim" attitude to T2: you brought your db on yourself by slobbing around guzzling junk food. The happy corollary to this, for non-diabetics, is that they can comfort themselves with the illusion that they are not in danger of db because they are not sugar-chomping couch potatoes. We know it's not true, and it's maddening to be misjudged and denigrated.

The second is the "healthy carbohydrate" advice that we are constantly given by HCPs. We know from our meters that both "healthy" and "junk" carbohydrates are as one to our peculiar pancreases, but we are constantly told by professionals who ought to know that we are wrong and that we should eat things that we know to be harmful to us. Again, it's maddening.

It's no wonder that low-carbers can come across as a bit over-vehement, a bit defensive, a bit evangelical. But I think that in fact we are all like you: not on a holy mission to ban evil carbs from the earth, just doing our best to live with a body that can't cope with them.

Kate

 

[pavlosn]

Dear Touchett

Apologies for calling you Jarrett earlier! I do not know where that came from!

The sad truth is that there are a lot of theories on what is good or bad for us to eat. If every time someone claims something is bad for us we stop eating it, we would soon all end up starving ourselves, which would also not be very good for us! This is the trap I fear you have fallen into.

Personally I think it is nonsense to say that we should not eat more than x grams of protein or fat in a day. What is important is the proportion of our daily calorific intake coming from each major macronutrient source ( proteins, fats and carbs). As depending on sex, body size and level of physical activity, we all have different calorific intake requirements just to stay alive, it does not make sense to set a uniform limit for any macronutrient in terms of so many grams per day.

Why don't you use an app such as myfittnesspal to keep a food diary of what you eat. This will provide you with data such as total calories consumed as well as breakdown by macronutrient.

Why listen to Dr Bernstein or anyone else on what you should eat, and if as I understand it Dr Bernstein advocates a low carb high fat diet, then you are only following part of his story as you seem to be doing low carb low fat- and running out of energy.

So what if Dr Bernstein says cooked tomatoes or peppers increase blood glucose levels? Did you try this? Do they increase your blood glucose levels? If so by how much? Some increase of glucose after a meal is only natural even in non-diabetics?

Why not let your own body and your glucose meter guide you on what to eat?

If you are within 2mmol two hours after a meal to whatever level you were before the meal, then in most peoples opinion that would be perfectly fine. If you are higher then next time have something different or a smaller amount of whatever it is that that you believe made your levels high (usually carbs).

As for the sugar added to the recipe it is only a small amount to cancel part of the tomatoes acidity. Only a small part of that will end up in your plate. You may be able to tolerate it or if not you could even try making the dish without it, cooked peppers are quite sweet tasting anyway. As for wine, if doctors often recommend the odd glass of wine, a glass of red wine per day is meant to be good for you, I do not see why not to add it in food where the alcohol will evaporate. If you prefer use dry rather than sweet wine. Stop trying to guess how your glucose will react, try, test and then you will know!

Living with diabetes is all about finding a balance that will work for you.

We all learn by making mistakes. As long as we do that and do not keep perpetuating the same mistakes, getting things wrong every now and then, especially in the beginning when we are still finding our way, will not kill us

Pavlos



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[Scandichic]

I follow the LCHF way of life. Totto suggested it and it works for me. I think it may suit you. Go and look on www.dietdoctor.com I get my carbs through green veggies and dairy. Am at work now but due to see the dreaded dn. have some recipes which might suit


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[touchett]

As you can see I put your recipe into a calculator, missed out the bottom few items and of course the chicken. Serve with a big green salad and possibly a couple beautiful small waxy potatoes There are people on here that would consider that too high in carbs You certainly couldn't keep within 12g for the meal with that. There are others who think that something like this would be fine. (I'll duck out here as I have T1 )


View attachment 3624

Thank you for going to the trouble, phoenix. Though I guess this is hello, and goodbye since you identify yourself as a type 1, and I'm a type 2. And never the twain shall meet. Actually, I hope that isn't true, and certainly appreciate any counsel or advice that people here can offer. Thank you again!

 

[touchett]

I find that a small portion of brown basmati rice doesnt affect my BGs very much and the addition of a splash of wine livens up many dishes is there a reason why wine wont help your cause ?.I dont need to lose weight so I eat lots of green veg with butter if you add that to a lovely steak or chicken breast whats not to like?
CAROL

I hadn't even considered steak! I suppose I tend to see beef as a luxury food, and I'm reading mixed things about alcohols and sugar, that I sort of gave up as a precaution or out of exasperation. May I ask what kinds of veg you enjoy? I haven't ventured much outside of lettuce, slivers of onion, and 1/2 cup of carrots.

 

[touchett]

When I feel deprived I just make the most luxurious meal I can think of - cauliflower puree with scallops and bacon or if the purse will allow, steak with large prawns in garlic butter. Beef stroganoff with asparagus instead of rice even froie gras for those that like it. All these sorts of meals are ok and feel decadent.
Last night my husband and son ate southern coated chicken pieces with pasta parcels in pesto and broccoli. I had lightly poached smoked haddock with spinach, butter and garlic and you know what.... I wasn't even slightly envious!

I do however really miss warm bread dripping in butter straight from the oven and warm home-cooked doughnuts oozing with jam!

Your description of warm bread and home-cooked doughnuts made my mouth water. I'm hoping you still indulge in those things, even if only on rare occasions! The beef stroganoff sounds delicious.

I am actually looking forward to experimenting a bit with cauliflower this evening. I'd been avoiding cabbages, as I have what doctors might call a comorbidity or an additional metabolic disorder--gout from my father's side, and these particular veg are rich in purines. I'm hoping to make them a staple without any adverse affects. I don't know if diabetics with a North American/European background have the same struggle with staples, but as an Asian, I have to say, it has been challenging to find a replacement for rice. Not to suggest that someone who grew up on bread or pasta doesn't face a similar challenge, but I cannot over emphasize the role of rice in Asian culture--it's not atypical to see rice eaten at every meal, everyday.

 

[pavlosn]

[quote="touchett, post: 501902, member: 95608"May I ask what kinds of veg you enjoy?[/quote]

Cauliflower
Broccoli
Celery
Carrots
Cucumber
Tomatoes
Rocket
Parsley
Coriander
Spinach
Asparagus
Kohlrabi
Artichokes
Lettuce

Just off the top of my head. Enjoy most of them raw as well as cooked

Herbs are good to use as well as they add flavor



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[pavlosn]

Aubergines
Mushrooms
Couchettes
Onion
Garlic

Also small portions of pulses such as
Lentils
Beans


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[touchett]

Dear Touchett

Apologies for calling you Jarrett earlier! I do not know where that came from!

The sad truth is that there are a lot of theories on what is good or bad for us to eat. If every time someone claims something is bad for us we stop eating it, we would soon all end up starving ourselves, which would also not be very good for us! This is the trap I fear you have fallen into.

Personally I think it is nonsense to say that we should not eat more than x grams of protein or fat in a day. What is important is the proportion of our daily calorific intake coming from each major macronutrient source ( proteins, fats and carbs). As depending on sex, body size and level of physical activity, we all have different calorific intake requirements just to stay alive, it does not make sense to set a uniform limit for any macronutrient in terms of so many grams per day.

Why don't you use an app such as myfittnesspal to keep a food diary of what you eat. This will provide you with data such as total calories consumed as well as breakdown by macronutrient.

Why listen to Dr Bernstein or anyone else on what you should eat, and if as I understand it Dr Bernstein advocates a low carb high fat diet, then you are only following part of his story as you seem to be doing low carb low fat- and running out of energy.

So what if Dr Bernstein says cooked tomatoes or peppers increase blood glucose levels? Did you try this? Do they increase your blood glucose levels? If so by how much? Some increase of glucose after a meal is only natural even in non-diabetics?

Why not let your own body and your glucose meter guide you on what to eat?

If you are within 2mmol two hours after a meal to whatever level you were before the meal, then in most peoples opinion that would be perfectly fine. If you are higher then next time have something different or a smaller amount of whatever it is that that you believe made your levels high (usually carbs).

As for the sugar added to the recipe it is only a small amount to cancel part of the tomatoes acidity. Only a small part of that will end up in your plate. You may be able to tolerate it or if not you could even try making the dish without it, cooked peppers are quite sweet tasting anyway. As for wine, if doctors often recommend the odd glass of wine, a glass of red wine per day is meant to be good for you, I do not see why not to add it in food where the alcohol will evaporate. If you prefer use dry rather than sweet wine. Stop trying to guess how your glucose will react, try, test and then you will know!

Living with diabetes is all about finding a balance that will work for you.

We all learn by making mistakes. As long as we do that and do not keep perpetuating the same mistakes, getting things wrong every now and then, especially in the beginning when we are still finding our way, will not kill us

Pavlos

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Hi Pavlos. I haven't quite wrapped my brain around the mmol/blood glucose conversions, and as mentioned before, I am hopelessly rubbish at maths. If I start out with a fasting glucose of 72mg, it shouldn't spike beyond what point? I have read on the blood sugars 101 website, to aim not to spike over 120mg/dL, and definitely not over 140mg/dL. What would a 2mmol rise look like, in terms of fasting blood glucose and post-prandial numbers, in mg/dL?

Thanks for sharing your vegetable staples, and for the blood glucose monitoring advice. If only I could filter the sound advice, from the quacks, extremists, and Bernstein, I'd be a lot less confused.

With regards to carbohydrates, I'm more dazed and confused than before I started reading about it. A few salient points that keep coming up:

1) Carbohydrates / glucose are necessary sources of energy for the brain and body to function
2) We don't need carbohydrates AT ALL.

But don't most foods, including vegetables, contain carbohydrates? When a person says they're cutting out carbohydrates, do they mean just starches, grains, and refined sugars? If the body didn't need glucose or carbohydrates, why would gluconeogenesis happen? Why would the body convert protein into energy/glucose?

I'm an English major, not a nutritionist / food scientist! (said in DeForest Kelley voice). I don't have the "high energy" people seem to experience on the low carb diet. Mostly, I feel incredibly enervated, and I feel the deficit in my energy levels/brain function.

 

[pavlosn]

Hi Pavlos. I haven't quite wrapped my brain around the mmol/blood glucose conversions, and as mentioned before, I am hopelessly rubbish at maths. If I start out with a fasting glucose of 72mg, it shouldn't spike beyond what point? I have read on the blood sugars 101 website, to aim not to spike over 120mg/dL, and definitely not over 140mg/dL. What would a 2mmol rise look like, in terms of fasting blood glucose and post-prandial numbers, in mg/dL?

1 mmol is equal to 18 mg/dl so two mmol is 36 mg/dl . If you start with 72 you end up with 108 but 72 is probably a lower starting point than I had in mind!

The targets of 120-140 after two hours you mention sound like good targets to me. The guideline for the UK is to aim for a two hour figure of under 198, which personally I think is too high. On a good day I can manage under 140 after 1 hour and 120 after two.

My fasting blood sugars are in the 90 to 110 range so much higher than your 72. My last hbA1c was 5,3% so in the non diabetic range.

I walk for an hour each morning and I am on 2x850 mg of metformin.

I avoid the obvious carbohydrates like white bread, rice etc but will have the odd roast potato every now and then, a slice of whole grain bread toast for breakfast, or half a pitta bread with my kebab ( being Cypriot I love barbecued meat)

I eat a vary varied diet, most of it home cooked, but do enjoy going out for a meal on a regular basis. I find that middle eastern restaurants are very good for my blood sugars as what they serve is mostly grilled meat or raw salads and the spices they use add interest to the food.

I do not count carbs but I probably average about 150 to 200 so I guess Dr Bernstein would not be too happy with me.

I do test regularly though and so know how what I eat affects me. That does not mean that I do not get things wrong sometimes but when I do I just put that down to experience and try to not repeat the mistake.

I do not mean to be critical, in fact I do feel bad about my first reaction to your original post now, but it seems to me that your diet is too monotonous and too limited in even basic nutrients to be either healthy or sustainable in the long run.

I believe that you need to relax a bid and allow yourself to experiment with food and your body's reaction to it.

The way I see it is that if we diabetics have any advantage over the rest of the population is that our health is very closely monitored, through self testing, regular blood analysis, regular doctors visits. Even if we do get things wrong there will be some warning signs from all this monitoring to allow us to take corrective action

My philosophy is that the best treatment regime of medication, diet and exercise for us diabetics is one that we enjoy enough to stick with in the long run. I interpret that as both finding things that we like doing or eating that are good for us and having the occasional food that may not be so good for us.

You mentioned earlier Italy and ravioli with pumpkin. Not only would I go to Italy but I would make a point of trying this. I would probably not have a full portion. I probably would have it with a salad to fill me up and I would make sure that I do not have other carbs with it, but I would definitely want to try it.

If when I test I find that I am too high then I would probably make sure that my next meal is such that my sugars stabilize.

Don't ignore your diabetes but don't let it take over your life either!

Pavlos
.,



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[CollieBoy]

Thank you for going to the trouble, phoenix. Though I guess this is hello, and goodbye since you identify yourself as a type 1, and I'm a type 2. And never the twain shall meet. Actually, I hope that isn't true, and certainly appreciate any counsel or advice that people here can offer. Thank you again!

Don't worry, Phoenix is always willing to cross the Styx to aide us poor shades on the far side She's a very helpful person.

 

[touchett]

1 mmol is equal to 18 mg/dl so two mmol is 36 mg/dl . If you start with 72 you end up with 108 but 72 is probably a lower starting point than I had in mind!

The targets of 120-140 after two hours you mention sound like good targets to me. The guideline for the UK is to aim for a two hour figure of under 198, which personally I think is too high. On a good day I can manage under 140 after 1 hour and 120 after two.

My fasting blood sugars are in the 90 to 110 range so much higher than your 72. My last hbA1c was 5,3% so in the non diabetic range.

I walk for an hour each morning and I am on 2x850 mg of metformin.

I avoid the obvious carbohydrates like white bread, rice etc but will have the odd roast potato every now and then, a slice of whole grain bread toast for breakfast, or half a pitta bread with my kebab ( being Cypriot I love barbecued meat)

I eat a vary varied diet, most of it home cooked, but do enjoy going out for a meal on a regular basis. I find that middle eastern restaurants are very good for my blood sugars as what they serve is mostly grilled meat or raw salads and the spices they use add interest to the food.

I do not count carbs but I probably average about 150 to 200 so I guess Dr Bernstein would not be too happy with me.

I do test regularly though and so know how what I eat affects me. That does not mean that I do not get things wrong sometimes but when I do I just put that down to experience and try to not repeat the mistake.

I do not mean to be critical, in fact I do feel bad about my first reaction to your original post now, but it seems to me that your diet is too monotonous and too limited in even basic nutrients to be either healthy or sustainable in the long run.

I believe that you need to relax a bid and allow yourself to experiment with food and your body's reaction to it.

The way I see it is that if we diabetics have any advantage over the rest of the population is that our health is very closely monitored, through self testing, regular blood analysis, regular doctors visits. Even if we do get things wrong there will be some warning signs from all this monitoring to allow us to take corrective action

My philosophy is that the best treatment regime of medication, diet and exercise for us diabetics is one that we enjoy enough to stick with in the long run. I interpret that as both finding things that we like doing or eating that are good for us and having the occasional food that may not be so good for us.

You mentioned earlier Italy and ravioli with pumpkin. Not only would I go to Italy but I would make a point of trying this. I would probably not have a full portion. I probably would have it with a salad to fill me up and I would make sure that I do not have other carbs with it, but I would definitely want to try it.

If when I test I find that I am too high then I would probably make sure that my next meal is such that my sugars stabilize.

Don't ignore your diabetes but don't let it take over your life either!

Pavlos
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Actually Pavlos, the post where you give me a dressing down / reprimand of sorts seem to be everyone's favourite--it certainly has more likes than anything I've ever published I'm not very popular, and that's alright, I'm sure a few readers have wanted to kick my a** as it were, and now they get to experience the schadenfreude of someone else doing that--one of the peculiarities of human nature, I guess.

More importantly, I do thank you for your always thoughtful and kindly given counsel, and especially for sharing anecdotes from your own personal experiences living and eating with diabetes. Reading about how others live with this condition, what you deftly described as the "empirical experiences" of diabetics, does give an otherwise very lost person, an idea about how to survive.

 

[touchett]

Don't worry, Phoenix is always willing to cross the Styx to aide us poor shades on the far side She's a very helpful person.

Fergus, was that a reference to the Aeneid and the Odyssey? You might have just made my afternoon!

 

[CollieBoy]

Fergus, was that a reference to the Aeneid and the Odyssey? You might have just made my afternoon

I have an interest in Greek mythology (actually also Roman, Norse,Celtic etc). The logical word is sooo boring.
Glad to cheer up your Friday

 

[Kat100]

No apologies necessary, and I apologise if came across as antagonistic or negative towards the forum.

Just a rambling, thinking out loud kind of post from me.

Mostly, I get the impression that many diabetics cope with cutting out carbohydrates from their diets by telling themselves that all carbs are "junk"--from Mars bars to store bought pasta. All carbs are created equal to a pancreas, but not all of us were indulging in junk food. The carbs that I'll miss are local goods like artisanal ciabatta, salted caramel tarts from my favourite patisserie, homemade mushroom risotto, and good quality chocolates sourced from Costa Rica.

For me, it's utterly disingenuous to say that ALL the carbohydrate-rich foods that diabetics must give up, nolens volens, were "junk"--a packet of factory-produced crisps and frozen TV dinners may legitimately count as junk food, but chicken pot pies made from scratch with homemade stock, and linzer cookies, while laden with carbohydrates, are not the same as a bag of Walker's crisps.

My pancreas can't tell the difference, but I can. I can happily forego junk food for the rest of my days. It's the lovely homemade food that I'm going to miss. The quality breads, and beautifully crafted desserts made under the supervision of masterful French pastry chefs like Nadege Nourian. Cooking and eating formed such an important part of my life. I have so few vices--I don't drink, or smoke. Food was one of the few pleasures I had in life, and if I'm honest with myself, while I haven't so much as touched a starch since my diagnosis in January, I would be LYING if I said every moment hasn't been miserable, or a constant tussle to choose foods for my health.

It's ok I am with you on all that you have said, I to never ate junk foods, I do eat some carbs and I am type 2 , I miss the lovely good you talk about ...

 

[paul-1976]

Yes, on another forum, a newly diagnosed type 2 asked what grains she could replace white rice with (I believe she suggested brown rice or quinoa), and she was shouted down by the carb-sensitive members, some quite vociferous, who told her she had to "give up starches and grains" or get gangrene. Yikes.

It's that kind of extreme attitude towards carbohydrates that makes me uneasy, and I don't often see balance in these opinions. It's all very starkly black and white, "eat a cookie or lose a toe" or, "carbohydrates are addictive, why feed an addiction". I.

Was that a UK forum? I'm a member on a few UK diabetes forums and have never seen that to be fair.

 

[touchett]

I have an interest in Greek mythology (actually also Roman, Norse,Celtic etc). The logical word is sooo boring.
Glad to cheer up your Friday

Fantastic! I have a minor in Classics. Still don't speak a word of Greek or Latin though, heresy I know. I'm partial to the Fagles translations of the Iliad and the Odyssey published by Penguin a few years ago, although a lot of people prefer the Richmond Lattimore version--his near Greek renderings like "Achilleus" for Achilles, and Patroklus, drove me nuts though, as I'm used to the anglicized spellings. If you like Greek myths, I highly recommend Powell's Classical Myth in any edition, from the fifth onwards. I got my copy for a $1USD at Alibris! It's a terrific primer that focuses on Greek mythology, but introduces Near Eastern parallels as well, like Utnapishtim from the Epic of Gilgamesh.

 

[carty]

Re veg have you tried Kale it is full of good things and although it is quite bitter for me anyway but it is great in soups and you can dry it in the oven until crispy and it is just like the "seaweed" that you get with chinese takeaways
CAROL

 

[pavlosn]

Actually Pavlos, the post where you give me a dressing down / reprimand of sorts seem to be everyone's favourite--it certainly has more likes than anything I've ever published I'm not very popular, and that's alright, I'm sure a few readers have wanted to kick my a** as it were, and now they get to experience the schadenfreude of someone else doing that--one of the peculiarities of human nature, I guess.

More importantly, I do thank you for your always thoughtful and kindly given counsel, and especially for sharing anecdotes from your own personal experiences living and eating with diabetes. Reading about how others live with this condition, what you deftly described as the "empirical experiences" of diabetics, does give an otherwise very lost person, an idea about how to survive.

If you met me in real life you would never accuse me of being Mr popularity. Most people would probably describe me as a nice guy but a bit idiosyncratic and possibly a bit too clever for his own good.

To be honest being popular has never really been a priority.

Your original post was the first thing I read this morning and it did upset me because I misinterpreted your comments as being disrespectful to others on this forum (not necessarily myself)

My responses to people on this forum do tend to include quite a lot of retelling of personal experience, as I feel that, not being medically trained or an expert of any kind, that and a bit of common spence, is all I have to offer.

If you find this useful you may like this thread/journal of mine. No literary masterpiece but you may get some ideas and does include some pretty photos

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/ind...-all-that---personal-diary.53350/#post-487595

Pavlos




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