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Started testing again pending "official" diagnosis

I have more than 5 prescribed medications too. Probably would not be alive long without them. If there was any way of managing conditions without I would, even if that meant I needed to put in a fair bit of effort or make changes to diet or something else I could adjust. I have also managed to stop taking Metformin after making changes to diet to bring about non-diabetic BG levels, and have refused some of the meds offered for other conditions because I can tolerate the conditions' symptoms better than the meds. It would depend on individual tolerance levels, I guess, but my own preference is to ingest as few toxic substances as possible. Physicians are quick to reach for the prescription pad, and the consequences are not always as intended.
Medications are not toxic when used as directed in the correct doses. There is an old saying "the dose makes the poison". We ingest, inhale and absorb toxins all the time, but in such tiny amounts that they do not generally harm us. Of course I'd prefer it if I didn't need any meds, but I wouldn't be alive if I did that. So I accept whatever my future holds, having done my best to trade off risks against benefits with the best information available at the time.

I don't need metformin to treat symptoms, I'm mainly using it to manage risks of future illness such as heart disease and cancer. I wouldn't take a statin because IMO for me the risks outweigh the benefits (by a lot), but since (as far as I know) the benefits of metformin outweigh the risks (for me) then it's a logical choice.

Each to their own, as long as people get the opportunity to read about the pros and cons and then make an informed decision. I think helping to provide those opportunities is a good thing.
 
Where did I say "all"? I NEVER said that. I do not like them if I can avoid them. Pandadol, metformin .. could be anything.

Read before judgement. God knows you do it enough
 
Where did I say "all"? I NEVER said that. I do not like them if I can avoid them. Pandadol, metformin .. could be anything.

Read before judgement. God knows you do it enough
It's right there in those posts, 32 and 34.

And as for your unnecessarily abusive tone... reported.
 
It's right there in those posts, 32 and 34.

And as for your unnecessarily abusive tone... reported.

Like I care. You just can't read.

You knew I was referring to drugs for the condition, not for other life saving matters, but again, you choose to pick a fight.

Look at my # 38 post
 
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Medications are not toxic when used as directed in the correct doses. There is an old saying "the dose makes the poison". We ingest, inhale and absorb toxins all the time, but in such tiny amounts that they do not generally harm us. Of course I'd prefer it if I didn't need any meds, but I wouldn't be alive if I did that. So I accept whatever my future holds, having done my best to trade off risks against benefits with the best information available at the time.

I don't need metformin to treat symptoms, I'm mainly using it to manage risks of future illness such as heart disease and cancer. I wouldn't take a statin because IMO for me the risks outweigh the benefits (by a lot), but since (as far as I know) the benefits of metformin outweigh the risks (for me) then it's a logical choice.

Each to their own, as long as people get the opportunity to read about the pros and cons and then make an informed decision. I think helping to provide those opportunities is a good thing.
@CatLadyNZ
I refer to this part of the article you recommended in an earlier post

'
Metformin May Deplete Vitamin B-12 and Folate
Metformin has one more significant side effect. It may deplete Vitamin B-12 because it may alter the ability of the body to absorb vitamin B-12 from the gut. If this is the case, oral supplementation will not help. You would need to have Vitamin B-12 shots to address this deficiency.

Typically it takes about 10 years for low Vitamin B-12 levels to develop, but if you are already marginal for Vitamin B-12 or have other issues with your ability to absorb nutrients this might happen earlier. Your doctor should periodically test your Vitamin B-12 levels if you are taking Metformin.
Low vitamin B-12 causes a form of neuropathy that can be confused with diabetic neuropathy but which is something different.'


I had been on prescribed Metformin for four years when I developed what my doctor diagnosed as diabetic neuopathy in my feet and legs. To control the 'neuropathy pain' I was prescribed amitriptyline and gabapentin. The pain remained and I was also restricted in activity because of the sedative effect of the drugs. Doc then thought I was becoming very depressed so wanted to prescribe more drugs to cope with the depression. Well of course I was getting more depressed, I had unresolved pain, and could not go out because I was not able to drive due to the meds and was very sleepy. Not living, just existing. Further investigation by an allergy consultant revealed that the Metformin was reacting with another drug for hypertension, causing the symptoms doc had diagnosed as neuropathy. Vitamin B12 levels were low too.

Since I stopped Metformin the pain doc thought was neuropathy is no longer there. B12 levels have become normal too. No need for amitrityline or gabapentin or any meds for depression.

Medicines can be toxic when mixed with other medicines. Also, sometimes many years after being deemed safe some medications are found to have side effects that can be devastating but too late to reverse any damage to certain patients. Hence I make my choice to have as little pharmacological and surgical intervention as possible. We each need to be fully informed and not just be presented with one side of any opinion in order to consider risks and benefits and make choices based on individual circumstances.
 
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@JenniferW - There has been some robust arguments going on here, which can be either a distraction or thought provoking. I hope they are the latter for you.

I thought I would just relate my own story, around my diagnosis, and the approach I encountered and adopted, which worked well for me.

I was diagnosed in October 2013 with an HbA1c of 73, and an unacceptable fasting score (I forget for now) so there was no question from anyone that I had crossed the diabetic starting line. I was totally asymptomatic, so I was flabbergasted, but I immediately adopted a programmes of self testing, which confirmed the diagnosis even to me. My numbers were plain old too high. My lipids and blood pressure were also elevated, as is often the situation for newly diagnose diabetics.

Oooops. Oh dear. Where things got a bit more complex was that this was just 3 weeks before I was leaving for a 9-12 month trip overseas to a third world country. I had never, ever in my life taken medication for any longer than a few weeks at a time. I qualified, and still do, for the title of a rabidly anti-meds old girl. Just to counter that, I am a former clinician, so I do understand some medications are unavoidable, and are acceptable where the balance of benefits outweighs the risks or side-effects. But, from that stance, you will appreciate I felt myself staring down the barrel at a diabetes drug, statins and a drug to moderate my BP. The practise nurse, in particular, was keen to moderate my lipids.

I negotiated a period of time to attempt to moderate my readings, by my own efforts, and set to it. Aside from the convenience of starting my trip without the concern of new meds, it also meant I could see exactly what my body could achieve on it’s own. I would have a better understanding of whether whatever improvements I managed were by me, and my body’s own resources, or whether the chemical intervention made the difference. Do you understand what I mean?

So, I began my journey modifying my diet and testing my bloods. I broke my big trip to come back to UK mid-way for a touch base with the medics. I appreciated at this point, I could be faced again with some decisions on medication.

By the time I came back, I was seeing significantly improved finger prick tests, giving me hope I had effected some improvements. My clothes were also hanging on me, although I had not weighed myself for the first three months, so I had no idea how much I might have lost. My sole, initial goal was to moderate my blood scores. By this time, I also noticed my BP had moderated too, back to “normal” range.

Cutting to the chase, my first HbA1c, post diagnosis had reduced from 73 to 37. My BP became non-problematic. My BMI was well into the healthy range. My lipids were still raising eyebrows, but the components had improved enough for no action to be taken. I resumed my trip.

I have never taken any diabetes, BP or lipids drugs, and I hope to remain that way. I also appreciate that not everyone is fortunate enough to have the lucky breaks I clearly have, in terms of retained pancreatic functionality, but I might never have known that, had I just gone straight to pharmaceutical support.

It’s clearly your choice to see where you go, but at a borderline, for me, I would definitely want to know if I could drive my scores back down into the non-diabetic ranges before considering drugs.

To repeat; my default position is I would absolutely rather not take drugs where possible and credible. It is my belief our bodies are a wonderful thing that will do it’s best to look after us, and keep us in good shape, when we help it out from time to time. I have taken medications in the past, and it’s probably I will have to in the future, should I be fortunate enough to reach a ripe old age, but for now, I prefer not to be tethered to my pharmacy.

Good luck with it all. You certainly have a load of reading and thinking ahead of you!

If I can help further, feel free to ask.
 
Given my strange reaction to Metformin SR, I'd have saved myself a hell of a lot of medical tests and a hospital trip if I'd never started taking it. The only reason I started was for the touted extra benefits and the hope it would tame my dawn phenomenon.

Bleeding gastritis, low ferritin, an endoscopy and another disastrous attempt to take Nexium later and I decided to quit them both - my gastritis cleared up within a few days and a series of ferritin injections later, my levels were restore to normal and have stayed that way. My dawn phenomenon finally yielded to intermittent fasting and additional weight loss :)
 
Your arguments here are a good example of why I'm not going to go to a GP who's already taken a decision not to put me on medication, to discuss medication options. Face-to-face, I need to be able to use the person with the power to write the prescriptions in what we agree to be the best option for the time. The NICE guidelines and the GP's interpretation of them might well prescribe one particular route, and if I decide I want to try another one, I don't think I'll get very far saying the equivalent of "I believe ...".

Nevertheless, thank you for all the references along the way to relevant research to read up on.
 
In the UK Metformin is licenced as follows:

Metformin is licensed for the treatment of type 2 diabetes mellitus, particularly in people who are overweight, when dietary management and exercise alone do not result in adequate glycaemic control.

http://www.nice.org.uk/advice/esuom...-professionals#regulatory-status-of-metformin

If it is prescribed outside this, it is prescribed "off label" when certain guidelines must be followed by the doctor.

This is most likely the reason GP's do not generally prescribe Metformin to pre-diabetics, and why a 3 month (approx.) time is often given to newly diagnosed diabetics with reasonably "low" HbA1c's (such as 53 or less) to reduce levels by diet and life-style changes. Should that not result in lowered levels, then Metformin is generally prescribed. As with anything, there are often exceptions.
 
A couple of things. Why not do a fast and then give yourself your own glucose tolerance test?

It's easy to do.. Wake up at say 6am test and then drink 75g of glucose tabs dissolved in water.

Test and record your BG every 1/2 hour for 3/to 4/ hours making sure you are reading or watching TV.

Check out how your test results compared to these figures ( there are others just Google )
http://www.endocrineweb.com/conditions/diabetes/diagnosing-diabetes

2nd I've always felt that pre-diabetes was a mistaken diagnosis. Basically, you have to do the same life style changes as if you were diagnosed with diabetes.

A person with stage 1/cancer still has cancer - you don't have pre-cancer.

Most people with pre-diabetes or metabolic syndrome end up with diabetes.
Hi runner2009, I have to disagree. There are some conditions that are pre-cancerous. I have Bowens disease. It turns into basal cell carcinomas. Had one removed from my leg. And now have a squamous cell carcinoma to be removed. I am hoping I am not pre-diabetic. My dr keeps saying no, because I dont have high blood sugar, but a specialist said I am probably insulin resistant. My father and grandmother both had type 2diabetes.
 
I agree, polypharmacy increases risk because 5 or more meds will have unpredictable interactions plus there is more risk of error in taking them.

I'm on more than 5 meds, because each one is necessary and beneficial and in most cases there is no non-medication alternative. I've learned over the years to make each medication decision carefully and to be prepared to change if it doesn't work out.

Needing lots of meds is no fun. For example, I'm trying to decide whether I'd rather have restless legs syndrome or chronic fatigue. I would love it if there were effective alternatives but I haven't seen convincing research evidence for anything other than the meds I'm trying.
Hi CatLadyNZ
I dont get restless leg syndrome because I take Horsechestnut herbal tablets. Some brands are just horse chestnut, some have butchers broom, vitamin C, etc. It really works. You would need to check with your pharmacist and/or doctor regarding interactions with other medication. Hope this is a help.
Sassiegirl from Tas.
 
@CatLadyNZ
I refer to this part of the article you recommended in an earlier post

'
Metformin May Deplete Vitamin B-12 and Folate
Metformin has one more significant side effect. It may deplete Vitamin B-12 because it may alter the ability of the body to absorb vitamin B-12 from the gut. If this is the case, oral supplementation will not help. You would need to have Vitamin B-12 shots to address this deficiency.

Typically it takes about 10 years for low Vitamin B-12 levels to develop, but if you are already marginal for Vitamin B-12 or have other issues with your ability to absorb nutrients this might happen earlier. Your doctor should periodically test your Vitamin B-12 levels if you are taking Metformin.
Low vitamin B-12 causes a form of neuropathy that can be confused with diabetic neuropathy but which is something different.'


I had been on prescribed Metformin for four years when I developed what my doctor diagnosed as diabetic neuopathy in my feet and legs. To control the 'neuropathy pain' I was prescribed amitriptyline and gabapentin. The pain remained and I was also restricted in activity because of the sedative effect of the drugs. Doc then thought I was becoming very depressed so wanted to prescribe more drugs to cope with the depression. Well of course I was getting more depressed, I had unresolved pain, and could not go out because I was not able to drive due to the meds and was very sleepy. Not living, just existing. Further investigation by an allergy consultant revealed that the Metformin was reacting with another drug for hypertension, causing the symptoms doc had diagnosed as neuropathy. Vitamin B12 levels were low too.

Since I stopped Metformin the pain doc thought was neuropathy is no longer there. B12 levels have become normal too. No need for amitrityline or gabapentin or any meds for depression.

Medicines can be toxic when mixed with other medicines. Also, sometimes many years after being deemed safe some medications are found to have side effects that can be devastating but too late to reverse any damage to certain patients. Hence I make my choice to have as little pharmacological and surgical intervention as possible. We each need to be fully informed and not just be presented with one side of any opinion in order to consider risks and benefits and make choices based on individual circumstances.
I agree with all of this, including the last sentence which summarises why I spoke up, so that JenniferW would have some info to help her decide in her individual circumstances. She was being presented with one side so I presented her with another side, for her consideration. She welcomed that. Good result I'd say.

My statement that medicines are not toxic when taken as directed includes not taking them with other drugs that there are known interactions with. I read the prescribing information (package insert) for a new drug almost every day, and often read the professional version if I can find it. So when I say "when taken as directed" I am implying that the drug is being taken according to the prescribing information. Doctors can only make recommendations with the information they have at the time.

I was responding to a statement about avoiding "toxic substances". Lots of things are toxic in certain situations. I think a lot of people (in general) have fear about medicines (in general) that isn't justified by the evidence. Like most of us, I've been harmed by drugs at one time or another. But I've also been harmed by illnesses that needed drug treatment.

I guess in summary I'm inviting people to both keep an open mind and to seek full information. Instead of being more afraid of drugs than is necessary. Because when people are biased against drugs they might miss out on the benefits of those drugs.
 
Hi CatLadyNZ
I dont get restless leg syndrome because I take Horsechestnut herbal tablets. Some brands are just horse chestnut, some have butchers broom, vitamin C, etc. It really works. You would need to check with your pharmacist and/or doctor regarding interactions with other medication. Hope this is a help.
Sassiegirl from Tas.
Thanks for thinking of me. And welcome to the forum :)

Tonight my RLS symptoms are not as bad as they were last night - I don't want to jinx things but I might have found the right dosage of a drug and actually hit the sweet spot so I don't have RLS or fatigue... wish me luck!
 
What might work for you is fine. I hate pills and prefer diet and exercise. I trust you wouldn't make similar comments about statins.

Metformin (for me) was OK .... but FIRST opportunity I had to dump them, I did.
If you had a bad infection you would need antibiotics. I remember my Dad in hospital when his glucose levels went through the roof because of the antibiotics he was taking for a chest infection. His dr accused us of taking food in for him to eat that he shouldnt have. Everyone was very upset, because Dad was so strict with his diet, and we wouldnt do that. He started off on medication too when he was diagnosed., but soon didnt need it. The nurses made him have some jam on his toast when he had his hip replacement, because his levels were too low. :) Of course this doesnt work for everyone. We are all different. The exercise bit doesnt work very well for me. I have nerve damage in my left knee and the left quadriceps muscle is paralysed, so every day is a bit of a battle. (Old fat ladies should not run flat out.) It doesnt stop me though. I cant run. I scuttle - my daughter says - like a crab. I have too much to do - helping run our farming company and keeping up with the grandkids. It was a good excuse for a new car. Can only drive an automatic now. So, yes I hate pills too, but sometimes you need them.
 
Thanks for thinking of me. And welcome to the forum :)

Tonight my RLS symptoms are not as bad as they were last night - I don't want to jinx things but I might have found the right dosage of a drug and actually hit the sweet spot so I don't have RLS or fatigue... wish me luck!
Good luck CatLady. Thanks for the welcome. I used to get RLS just sitting on the couch watching telly, let alone when I went to bed. It is the weirdest feeling isnt it. Cheers, Sassiegirl
 
@JenniferW - There has been some robust arguments going on here, which can be either a distraction or thought provoking. I hope they are the latter for you.

I thought I would just relate my own story, around my diagnosis, and the approach I encountered and adopted, which worked well for me.

I was diagnosed in October 2013 with an HbA1c of 73, and an unacceptable fasting score (I forget for now) so there was no question from anyone that I had crossed the diabetic starting line. I was totally asymptomatic, so I was flabbergasted, but I immediately adopted a programmes of self testing, which confirmed the diagnosis even to me. My numbers were plain old too high. My lipids and blood pressure were also elevated, as is often the situation for newly diagnose diabetics.

Oooops. Oh dear. Where things got a bit more complex was that this was just 3 weeks before I was leaving for a 9-12 month trip overseas to a third world country. I had never, ever in my life taken medication for any longer than a few weeks at a time. I qualified, and still do, for the title of a rabidly anti-meds old girl. Just to counter that, I am a former clinician, so I do understand some medications are unavoidable, and are acceptable where the balance of benefits outweighs the risks or side-effects. But, from that stance, you will appreciate I felt myself staring down the barrel at a diabetes drug, statins and a drug to moderate my BP. The practise nurse, in particular, was keen to moderate my lipids.

I negotiated a period of time to attempt to moderate my readings, by my own efforts, and set to it. Aside from the convenience of starting my trip without the concern of new meds, it also meant I could see exactly what my body could achieve on it’s own. I would have a better understanding of whether whatever improvements I managed were by me, and my body’s own resources, or whether the chemical intervention made the difference. Do you understand what I mean?

So, I began my journey modifying my diet and testing my bloods. I broke my big trip to come back to UK mid-way for a touch base with the medics. I appreciated at this point, I could be faced again with some decisions on medication.

By the time I came back, I was seeing significantly improved finger prick tests, giving me hope I had effected some improvements. My clothes were also hanging on me, although I had not weighed myself for the first three months, so I had no idea how much I might have lost. My sole, initial goal was to moderate my blood scores. By this time, I also noticed my BP had moderated too, back to “normal” range.

Cutting to the chase, my first HbA1c, post diagnosis had reduced from 73 to 37. My BP became non-problematic. My BMI was well into the healthy range. My lipids were still raising eyebrows, but the components had improved enough for no action to be taken. I resumed my trip.

I have never taken any diabetes, BP or lipids drugs, and I hope to remain that way. I also appreciate that not everyone is fortunate enough to have the lucky breaks I clearly have, in terms of retained pancreatic functionality, but I might never have known that, had I just gone straight to pharmaceutical support.

It’s clearly your choice to see where you go, but at a borderline, for me, I would definitely want to know if I could drive my scores back down into the non-diabetic ranges before considering drugs.

To repeat; my default position is I would absolutely rather not take drugs where possible and credible. It is my belief our bodies are a wonderful thing that will do it’s best to look after us, and keep us in good shape, when we help it out from time to time. I have taken medications in the past, and it’s probably I will have to in the future, should I be fortunate enough to reach a ripe old age, but for now, I prefer not to be tethered to my pharmacy.

Good luck with it all. You certainly have a load of reading and thinking ahead of you!

If I can help further, feel free to ask.
Well done for getting your blood pressure down. I wasn't able to do that without drugs, but I'm on a very low dose of an ACE inhibitor and luckily there doesn't seem to have been any side effects in 8 years or so. May I ask what your BP was? Just trying to get a sense of how much reduction is possible without meds. Even though my BP is always about 105/75 my GP tests it at every visit, which is about every 4-5 weeks. She's nothing if not thorough.
 
Well done for getting your blood pressure down. I wasn't able to do that without drugs, but I'm on a very low dose of an ACE inhibitor and luckily there doesn't seem to have been any side effects in 8 years or so. May I ask what your BP was? Just trying to get a sense of how much reduction is possible without meds. Even though my BP is always about 105/75 my GP tests it at every visit, which is about every 4-5 weeks. She's nothing if not thorough.

It's a while ago now, but I think it was around 170/110 in the surgery, which includes a dollop of white coat syndrome, plus it was taken after travel inoculations and another physical intervention on two visits.

I'm now running at 100-110.65/70, with a resting pulse around 50.

My body looks after me. :)
 
It's a while ago now, but I think it was around 170/110 in the surgery, which includes a dollop of white coat syndrome, plus it was taken after travel inoculations and another physical intervention on two visits.

I'm now running at 100-110.65/70, with a resting pulse around 50.

My body looks after me. :)
Wow, that's quite a drop. Your body does a good job of looking after you! Where can I get one like that, lol.
 
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