Newcastle protocol hasn't worked yet (7 weeks in)

[Tree sculpture]

I've been doing a Newcastle type diet (800 calories or less a day but using real food) for just over 7 weeks now. I thought it was all going well, I've lost 27 lb in weight and by also low-carbing (50g or less a day) I've been keeping my BG at pretty decent levels, mainly in the fives with some in the mid to low 4's and post prandials often still in the fives or low sixes. The only spikes have been where I've tried a new food which is obviously not ideal as its pushed me into the 7's. There was also one weekend where I had such a rotten cold I kind of gave up on the 800 calories and ate probably about 1800 a day including some oatcakes, thinking what my body needed to deal with the virus was lots of food and another weekend where I was away so had to eat out and couldn't count what I was having. But bar those times I've been very strict.

Last night I had a long standing engagement I'd agreed to before I was even diagnosed with diabetes, a charity dinner dance thing. So I decided it was the perfect opportunity to see what I could handle. Ok yes also I was just having a good time and wanted to indulge as well! So I started with a white bread roll with butter and it was the most delicious thing I can remember eating in my entire life. Everyone was laughing at my noises of pure bliss as I consumed it, not having had bread for so long it was like eating the best cake in the world! Then the starters arrived and my veggie one was salad and pesto on....yes more bread! It was delicious and I had it all. I was loving life then the main course came - veggie rissotto - carb heaven yet again. I couldn't finish the whole portion, my stomach has shrunk so much on this diet, but I got through about 3/4 of it. The speeches started so i thought it was a good chance to nip to the loo and see what all this naughty food had done as it was now nearly 2 hours since that first bread roll.

10.1!!! : ( The highest reading I'd had since I got my meter a week after diagnosis.

I was pretty shocked. I must admit I had had this little fantasy that I'd be one of the lucky ones and reverse the diabetes and as I'm nearly at 8 weeks of this very low calorie diet I really had hopes I might be now able to handle things like bread and rice. Needless to say the shock of the 10.1 ensured i wasn't tempted to eat the dessert course.

My diagnosis HbA1c was 91 so I am far from being a borderline T2 diabetic so maybe my hopes were unrealistic, but I have to say I'm disappointed. Am I being too optimistic in thinking I could have expected to see a better response to a carb heavy meal at this stage?

The good news is that 5 hours after starting eating I was back down to a more normal (for me) night time level of 4.3 but I also tested 3 hours after starting eating and it was 9.1 so it wasn't a momentary blip.

I know I'm extremely lucky to have discovered this forum the evening after I was diagnosed therefore I learned that low-carb was the way to control things immediately and so I have been able to get good control of my sugar levels from the outset, and of course I can and will continue to eat as low -carb as I need to to keep the levels safe for life if necessary. But I did also want that holy grail of reversal, I really really want that. Not so I can go back to my pre-diagnosis frankly appallingly unhealthy way of eating but just so that I can on occasion go out to eat with friends like a normal person and enjoy good food without having to consider what's in it. I don't drink so eating out is my main form of socialising and pre-diagnosis I probably ate out 4 or 5 times a month. that's all been stopped since I started the Newcastle protocol but I miss it.

Sorry for the essay! I don't know any other diabetics in my 'real life' so though everyone I know has been very supportive of what I've been doing diet-wise I just needed to have a little vent to people who will hopefully understand better than any of my non-diabetic friends can about how disappointed I was last night.

Thanks for reading

 

[SunnyExpat]

The original Newcastle diet was, I believe, reasonably high percentage carby shakes, so unlike a low carb real food diet.


Another point of the Newcastle Diet was to reset your eating habits, as you wean yourself back onto real food, and encourage you to move onto healthier options with less carbs than before, so maybe considering the carbs in that meal, it wasn't that bad a result,

Maybe the lack of carbs in your version of the diet means you were just unprepared for the sudden onslaught last night.

 

[Avocado Sevenfold]

@Tree sculpture LOL at you and the white bread roll!

Well done on your weight loss. I read last night's result as a good one. Assuming you were eating the likes of bread and rice when you were diagnosed with an hba1c of 91, you would have been averaging about 14.1mmol/L Last night you had a sudden load of carbs and came in at 10.1. To me, this says that you are better at handling carbs now. Keep up the good work.

 

[Totto]

Agree with @Avocado Sevenfold. It could have been much, much worse. I think you can be happy with those readings after bread, bread and rice. Don't make it a habit though.

 

[Roytaylorjasonfunglover]

I've been doing a Newcastle type diet (800 calories or less a day but using real food) for just over 7 weeks now. I thought it was all going well, I've lost 27 lb in weight and by also low-carbing (50g or less a day) I've been keeping my BG at pretty decent levels, mainly in the fives with some in the mid to low 4's and post prandials often still in the fives or low sixes. The only spikes have been where I've tried a new food which is obviously not ideal as its pushed me into the 7's. There was also one weekend where I had such a rotten cold I kind of gave up on the 800 calories and ate probably about 1800 a day including some oatcakes, thinking what my body needed to deal with the virus was lots of food and another weekend where I was away so had to eat out and couldn't count what I was having. But bar those times I've been very strict.

Last night I had a long standing engagement I'd agreed to before I was even diagnosed with diabetes, a charity dinner dance thing. So I decided it was the perfect opportunity to see what I could handle. Ok yes also I was just having a good time and wanted to indulge as well! So I started with a white bread roll with butter and it was the most delicious thing I can remember eating in my entire life. Everyone was laughing at my noises of pure bliss as I consumed it, not having had bread for so long it was like eating the best cake in the world! Then the starters arrived and my veggie one was salad and pesto on....yes more bread! It was delicious and I had it all. I was loving life then the main course came - veggie rissotto - carb heaven yet again. I couldn't finish the whole portion, my stomach has shrunk so much on this diet, but I got through about 3/4 of it. The speeches started so i thought it was a good chance to nip to the loo and see what all this naughty food had done as it was now nearly 2 hours since that first bread roll.

10.1!!! : ( The highest reading I'd had since I got my meter a week after diagnosis.

I was pretty shocked. I must admit I had had this little fantasy that I'd be one of the lucky ones and reverse the diabetes and as I'm nearly at 8 weeks of this very low calorie diet I really had hopes I might be now able to handle things like bread and rice. Needless to say the shock of the 10.1 ensured i wasn't tempted to eat the dessert course.

My diagnosis HbA1c was 91 so I am far from being a borderline T2 diabetic so maybe my hopes were unrealistic, but I have to say I'm disappointed. Am I being too optimistic in thinking I could have expected to see a better response to a carb heavy meal at this stage?

The good news is that 5 hours after starting eating I was back down to a more normal (for me) night time level of 4.3 but I also tested 3 hours after starting eating and it was 9.1 so it wasn't a momentary blip.

I know I'm extremely lucky to have discovered this forum the evening after I was diagnosed therefore I learned that low-carb was the way to control things immediately and so I have been able to get good control of my sugar levels from the outset, and of course I can and will continue to eat as low -carb as I need to to keep the levels safe for life if necessary. But I did also want that holy grail of reversal, I really really want that. Not so I can go back to my pre-diagnosis frankly appallingly unhealthy way of eating but just so that I can on occasion go out to eat with friends like a normal person and enjoy good food without having to consider what's in it. I don't drink so eating out is my main form of socialising and pre-diagnosis I probably ate out 4 or 5 times a month. that's all been stopped since I started the Newcastle protocol but I miss it.

Sorry for the essay! I don't know any other diabetics in my 'real life' so though everyone I know has been very supportive of what I've been doing diet-wise I just needed to have a little vent to people who will hopefully understand better than any of my non-diabetic friends can about how disappointed I was last night.

Thanks for reading

Look, it may be the case that you need more weightloss, and also remembers this. If you have followed this diet for 7 weeks, you have not eaten that many carbs. If you very little amounts of glucose for long periods of time, and then have this sudden shock of abnormal amounts of carbs, your bloodsugar readings are gonna seem diabetic. This happens even with people withouth diabetes if they follow a lowcarb diet for long periods of time. So if you want, try to have a somewhat higher intake of carbs for a couple of days, and see what happens. I can give links as evidence of this effect if you want.

 

[Indy51]

There is also the issue of downregulation of enzymes by the body that affect how you process food you're no longer accustomed to eating. Anyone on a low carb diet taking an OGTT is advised to "carb up" for at least 3 days to ramp up their enzyme production again. Dr Mike Eades on the subject:

Following a low-carb diet makes one a little glucose intolerant, which is the reason that the instructions for a glucose tolerance test always include the admonition to eat plenty of carbs in the week before the test. Why? Because all the macronutrients–glucose, fat and protein–are broken down by enzymes during the metabolic process. And all the enzymes necessary for the metabolism of the various macronutrients are made on demand but not immediately.

If you are on a high carbohydrate diet, then you will have plenty of enzymes on hand to deal with the carbohydrates you consume. If you switch to a low-carbohydrate diet, it takes a while to manufacture the enzymes in the quantities needed to deal with the extra fat and protein that your metabolic system hadn't been exposed to. This deficiency of protein/fat metabolizing enzymes is the reason people starting a low-carb diet become so easily fatigued–they've got plenty of enzymes on hand to break down carbs, they just don't have the carbs to metabolize. Once they produce the enzymes necessary to deal with the load of protein and fat, which takes a few days, they become low-carb adapted and no longer feel fatigued.

Once people become low-carb adapted then the same thing happens if they go face down in the donuts. They don't have the enzymes on board to deal with the sudden influx of glucose, and, as a consequence, their blood sugar spikes higher than it would on a person eating the same amount of carbohydrate who is already carb adapted.

Haven't tried it myself, but maybe taking digestive enzymes containing amylase might help in cases of over indulgence?

 

[wiseone]

I don't really understand the Newcastle diet, when you say real food I take it you mean cooked from scratch. Your readings and weight loss is excellent and a one time blow out won't do any harm so well done for what you have achieved and keep the faith.
I control my T2 with diet. Last week I was eating shop bought Onion Bahjees as a treat and found some chilli dipping sauce (my daughter"s) and thought I'd have a treat. The sauce said 35per cent less sugar so I thought what the heck! give it a try. 2hours later I had spiked at 12.9 , what a shock. After another hour I was down to 9.1. My norm is around 7 fasting and 8 post prad so I learnt a lesson on labelling. Reading the back of the bottle the carbs per 100g was 33.og of which sugars 28.0g and I only had a titchy bit.
I'm more careful now.

 

[AndBreathe]

Indy is correct about the big hit carb fest potentially having an uncharacteristic effect on your score, due to your body's "surprise" at the hit it was taking. Have a rad about the "last meal effect" about the enzyme production.

A further point that may be of note is if you tested 2 hours after starting to eat, but you were eating over the course of, an hour, or 90 minutes, say, you could have been carb loading much for quite some of the time between starting to eat and testing, if you understand what I mean.

I'm pleased you enjoyed your evening out, but I don't think I would call it a credible assessment of how you cope with carbs. In your shoes, I would want some far more robust measures, like how many carbs consumed (rather than just "lots"), and also a potentially better measure of post prandial, rather than after a carbfest graze.

I have no idea about your starting or current BMI, or what proportion of body weight you have lost, as both those things can (at a personal level) impact on the likelihood of the ND being successful.

Sadly, it doesn't work for everyone, but I wish you well in your continued journey.

 

[Celeriac]

There is also the issue of downregulation of enzymes by the body that affect how you process food you're no longer accustomed to eating. Anyone on a low carb diet taking an OGTT is advised to "carb up" for at least 3 days to ramp up their enzyme production again. Dr Mike Eades on the subject:

Following a low-carb diet makes one a little glucose intolerant, which is the reason that the instructions for a glucose tolerance test always include the admonition to eat plenty of carbs in the week before the test. Why? Because all the macronutrients–glucose, fat and protein–are broken down by enzymes during the metabolic process. And all the enzymes necessary for the metabolism of the various macronutrients are made on demand but not immediately.

If you are on a high carbohydrate diet, then you will have plenty of enzymes on hand to deal with the carbohydrates you consume. If you switch to a low-carbohydrate diet, it takes a while to manufacture the enzymes in the quantities needed to deal with the extra fat and protein that your metabolic system hadn't been exposed to. This deficiency of protein/fat metabolizing enzymes is the reason people starting a low-carb diet become so easily fatigued–they've got plenty of enzymes on hand to break down carbs, they just don't have the carbs to metabolize. Once they produce the enzymes necessary to deal with the load of protein and fat, which takes a few days, they become low-carb adapted and no longer feel fatigued.

Once people become low-carb adapted then the same thing happens if they go face down in the donuts. They don't have the enzymes on board to deal with the sudden influx of glucose, and, as a consequence, their blood sugar spikes higher than it would on a person eating the same amount of carbohydrate who is already carb adapted.

Haven't tried it myself, but maybe taking digestive enzymes containing amylase might help in cases of over indulgence?

Thank you thank you, I wondered why I have such an OTT reaction to processed carbs e.g. a 15g bag of organic cheese and herb puffs for toddlers with 9g carbs, when I can stuff veg and eat way more than 9g carbs in total.

Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

 

[Wildrover]

There is also the issue of downregulation of enzymes by the body that affect how you process food you're no longer accustomed to eating. Anyone on a low carb diet taking an OGTT is advised to "carb up" for at least 3 days to ramp up their enzyme production again. Dr Mike Eades on the subject:

Following a low-carb diet makes one a little glucose intolerant, which is the reason that the instructions for a glucose tolerance test always include the admonition to eat plenty of carbs in the week before the test. Why? Because all the macronutrients–glucose, fat and protein–are broken down by enzymes during the metabolic process. And all the enzymes necessary for the metabolism of the various macronutrients are made on demand but not immediately.

If you are on a high carbohydrate diet, then you will have plenty of enzymes on hand to deal with the carbohydrates you consume. If you switch to a low-carbohydrate diet, it takes a while to manufacture the enzymes in the quantities needed to deal with the extra fat and protein that your metabolic system hadn't been exposed to. This deficiency of protein/fat metabolizing enzymes is the reason people starting a low-carb diet become so easily fatigued–they've got plenty of enzymes on hand to break down carbs, they just don't have the carbs to metabolize. Once they produce the enzymes necessary to deal with the load of protein and fat, which takes a few days, they become low-carb adapted and no longer feel fatigued.

Once people become low-carb adapted then the same thing happens if they go face down in the donuts. They don't have the enzymes on board to deal with the sudden influx of glucose, and, as a consequence, their blood sugar spikes higher than it would on a person eating the same amount of carbohydrate who is already carb adapted.

Haven't tried it myself, but maybe taking digestive enzymes containing amylase might help in cases of over indulgence?

Brilliant, a light bulb moment, Thanks indy51

 

[macdoug]

Inspiring and entertaining story. Thanks for sharing so honestly, it is very helpful

7 weeks - you are doing well with a drop to 4.3 by night time after that carb binge. What was your morning after fasted levels? that is the real test.

I am 51 and 18 months into my diabetic journey

I remember I got my levels down in the early stages and then tested myself with a chicken dinner with mashed potatoes and a white roll at a dinner engagement. Blew out to 12!

18 months later, that never happens anymore.
I can eat out once, or even two nights consecutively,. Rice dishes preferably but once I had a burger and fries without going over 8 post prandial and staying under 6 fasted.

Please understand that white bread, with a GI of 120 is the worse thing you can eat, worse than pure sugar and really nobody should be eating it diabetic or not. It is likely one of, if not the main culprit in the current obesity/diabetes epidemic.

I was LCHF for about a year and had already achieved normal weight before trying the protocol . Like you, I used real food not shakes and, also like you, I occasionally lapsed into a carb binge complete with a similar orgasmic bread eating scene.

Keep going. You have the keys and the motivation to survive this without fear of diabetic complications or early death. We can live longer and healthier than non diabetics even without the need to reverse the condition. Be thankful we can dodge that bullet.

Be patient, It is a little hopeful to expect decades of metabolic damage to be undone in 7 weeks. That doesn't mean you won't heal in 7 months though.

I got a dog a few weeks ago and he needs to run. He has trained me upto jogging 5klms with some sprinting included after about 6 weeks. I have also started doing some resistance training, I do believe that the combination of exercise and VLCD ( I recently did just two weeks) has further improved my insulin sensitivity to the point where I can now pass a glucose tolerance test. That means my diabetes can no longer be detected by any current medical tests. That is by any definition a cure.

Although I had achieved an aic of 5.6 ( down from 7.8 at diagnosis) in 12 months without any exercise or fasting, I do recommend at least some regular walking be included with the dietary interventions. It makes the cells more desperate for fuel and forces them to allow glucose to be absorbed from the blood. Be as active as possible. If you can do a strength training program even better, that will increase glucose receptors in the muscles and further enhance your ability to handle the occasional carb meal.

I am under no illusions that I can ever return to a diet of burgers, chips, cereal, doughnuts, chocolate and ice cream which I used to over eat fearlessly. If I did, i would undo months of healing in a week or less. In that sense, I am not cured but then no one can escape consequences of the SAD, processed carb / high sugar/ wrong fat diet even if they manage to avoid diabetes

I am going to the same dinner this year, in two weeks. It was my sons high school graduation dinner last year and my daughters this year. Ill let you know how it goes.

Please keep sharing your progress, including the ups and downs. It is very encouraging to see others struggle and succeed like you are doing.

 

[macdoug]

Following a low-carb diet makes one a little glucose intolerant

Hi Indi51, thank you for posting this info .

You may well be right about a Low Carb diet causing increased glucose intolerance and that is the last thing diabetics want to do. Personally, I have found the opposite to be true having only improved on LCHF. Maybe my occasional breakdown binges were helpful for improving the ability to handle them occasionally?

Ive been trying to stay in ketosis permanently, believing this to be the healthiest protocol. Sooner or later I cave and eat the pizza, base and all. Ill take myself out of ketosis but blood sugar levels go nowhere near diabetic these days even with deserts or chocolate. Maybe Ive stumbled onto an improved version of LCHF that includes regular carb eating intervals to keep the enzymes available. I feel another experiment coming on. I had already considered, that when undertaking the VLCD Newcastle protocol, that some carbs like fruit, lentils and chick peas etc could be included as the carb count on under 800 cals/day is no longer critical for good bgl's. Thank you for posting the professor Taylor lecture on the Newcastle diet. It was very motivational and finally enabled me to do it successfully. A must see for anyone wanting to heal their diabetes

 

[SunnyExpat]

Hi Indi51, thank you for posting this info .

You may well be right about a Low Carb diet causing increased glucose intolerance and that is the last thing diabetics want to do. Personally, I have found the opposite to be true having only improved on LCHF. Maybe my occasional breakdown binges were helpful for improving the ability to handle them occasionally?

Ive been trying to stay in ketosis permanently, believing this to be the healthiest protocol. Sooner or later I cave and eat the pizza, base and all. Ill take myself out of ketosis but blood sugar levels go nowhere near diabetic these days even with deserts or chocolate. Maybe Ive stumbled onto an improved version of LCHF that includes regular carb eating intervals to keep the enzymes available. I feel another experiment coming on. I had already considered, that when undertaking the VLCD Newcastle protocol, that some carbs like fruit, lentils and chick peas etc could be included as the carb count on under 800 cals/day is no longer critical for good bgl's. Thank you for posting the professor Taylor lecture on the Newcastle diet. It was very motivational and finally enabled me to do it successfully. A must see for anyone wanting to heal their diabetes

The Newcastle Diet was never low carb. The shakes were mainly carbs, and veg, which are also carbs.

 

[andcol]

Stopping at 10.1 means that you body is now controlling the rate of glucose dumping into the blood stream. This means your liver/pancreas and gut are working in unison again.

 

[neil1945]

Hi - as an adjunct to this has any body tried the Diabetes Destroyer plan ($27) which says its based on the Newcastle plan but sets out special meal plan for about 3-4 weeks and meal plan for afterwards and a timing plan for eating - very interested to know if it works. I'm 70 and living alone so the help of a written guide plan sounds good

 

[Indy51]

Hi - as an adjunct to this has any body tried the Diabetes Destroyer plan ($27) which says its based on the Newcastle plan but sets out special meal plan for about 3-4 weeks and meal plan for afterwards and a timing plan for eating - very interested to know if it works. I'm 70 and living alone so the help of a written guide plan sounds good

This scam has already been discussed here: http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/diabetes-destroyer.86358/

 

[neil1945]

Thank you - much appreciated and I will save 27$

 

[Tree sculpture]

Gosh I really should log onto this forum more often, thank you SO MUCH to everyone who's taken took the time to comment on this thread. You're all so supportive and I can't tell you how much I appreciate it

Its so encouraging to hear that my 10.1 I had been stressing about was not actually that bad at all. I was totally unaware of the enzyme aspect, very interesting indeed.

I still have about another 3 1/2 stone to lose to get down to 'normal' BMI levels so i'm going to keep on keeping on with the 800 Cal daily limit, with perhaps the odd relaxation when circumstances make strict compliance very difficult (for instance I'm away travelling this weekend) - at least until my next set of blood tests which are due in 5 weeks. If they are as good as my daily tests suggest I may consider upping to perhaps 1000 or even more a day which would allow me to try a greater variety of low carb foods whilst still reducing overall body weight

I am doing exercise 3 or 4 times a week too but the exercise referral scheme guy I see, who seems very knowledgeable about diabetes, is recommending I only do cardiovascular stuff at the moment- he advises that weight/resistance training is not safe on an 800 Cal a day diet because the body will not be getting sufficient nutrients to mend the micro tears that weight training causes in the muscles. He seems to know his stuff so I'm abiding by his recommendations.

 

[macdoug]

I am doing exercise 3 or 4 times a week too but the exercise referral scheme guy I see, who seems very knowledgeable about diabetes, is recommending I only do cardiovascular stuff at the moment- he advises that weight/resistance training is not safe on an 800 Cal a day diet because the body will not be getting sufficient nutrients to mend the micro tears that weight training causes in the muscles. He seems to know his stuff so I'm abiding by his recommendations.

I think that is accurate advice whilst adhering to the VLCD protocol. My advice was more general information for managing bgl's

 

[LinsT]

Hi Tree sculpture. I looked at the Newcastle Uni website recently to find out about the Newcastle diet. According to the info leaflet, we each have a personal fat threshold after which our pancreas and liver get bogged down and are unable to function effectively. It's getting below that threshold - which is different for everyone - that's important. It also says that it doesn't really matter how you choose to lose the weight - low cal - low carb - low fat etc - as long as you continue to lose. So it sounds to me like you are doing everything right and just need to be patient. As far as I can see the other important fact here is that even when you have lost the weight, its not like you can just go back to eating whatever you want - this is a lifestyle change and is never going to be a 'quick fix'. It makes sense to me that once our bodies get into a better state - overloading em again will just take us back to square one. I'm sure you've probably already got or read this info, but just in case here's the link:
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/documents/Diabetes-Reversaloftype2study June 15.pdf