Alternative con artists

Pipp said:

I'm forever blowing bubbles!
Lyrics
I'm forever blowing bubbles,
Pretty bubbles in the air,
They fly so high, nearly reach the sky,
Then like my dreams they fade and die.
Fortune's always hiding,
I've looked everywhere,
I'm forever blowing bubbles,
Pretty bubbles in the air.

I'm dreaming dreams, I'm scheming schemes,
I'm building castles high.
They're born anew, their days are few,
Just like a sweet butterfly.
And as the daylight is dawning,
They come again in the morning!

I'm forever blowing bubbles,
Pretty bubbles in the air,
They fly so high, nearly reach the sky,
Then like my dreams they fade and die.
Fortune's always hiding,
I've looked everywhere,
I'm forever blowing bubbles,
Pretty bubbles in the air.

When shadows creep, when I'm asleep,
To lands of hope I stray!
Then at daybreak, when I awake,
My bluebird flutters away.
Happiness, you seem so near me,
Happiness, come forth and cheer me!

I'm forever blowing bubbles,
Pretty bubbles in the air,
They fly so high, nearly reach the sky,
Then like my dreams they fade and die.
Fortune's always hiding,
I've looked everywhere,
I'm forever blowing bubbles,
Pretty bubbles in the air.

Written by James Brockman, James Kendis, John Kellette, Nat Vincent • Copyright © Universal Music Publishing Group, Warner/Chappell Music, Inc

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Nah.. Don't work. Lol
Maybe it's my age? But I just can't stop thinking of this..

If life an empty bubble be
How sad for those who cannot see
The rainbow in the bubble.

Hell yeah!

I'm now a convert. Bubbles do indeed rock...

Jaylee said:

Just seen a TED talk from him.

Kinda like a "thinking man's" Russel Howard..
But I see where your coming from. I see some drugs & indeed some "alternative" stuff merely as "solutions" to problems inadvertently started in other industry sectors..

I have a therory for instance regarding "vaping" replacing smoking.? Possibly years down the line there will be autopsies on people who vaped all their life & it turns out when the lungs are opened they have some of the tell tale signs of a "drowning" victim..?
But what do I know....!?!

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Some scientists are already saying vaping may be just as bad as cigarettes

They say faith can move mountains so if someone has enough faith that a genuine alternative medication will work for them and sometimes it just does Maybe we should all have more faith in alternative treatments they just may work for us and how much better that would. I think Prince Charles is a big believer in Holistic remedies

zand said:

I'm also trying Ayurvedic medicine for an adrenal problem, too soon to tell if it's working yet.

Edit: Since both Chinese and Ayurvedic medicine were around long before modern medicine. I am wondering whether modern medicine should actually be the one called the alternative medicine?

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Well, that's not actually true in the case of Chinese Medicine, it was mostly made up by the Chinese Communists as a way of avoiding any cultural influence from the west (this is a great article about it: http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...igins_mao_invented_it_but_didn_t_believe.html ) , and anyway, just because something has been around a long time, doesn't mean it's better, in fact, usually not - they used to treat people as if illnesses were all due to imbalances of the humours, demonic posession or witchcraft, and it mostly ended up being ineffective, the whole point of scientific endeavour is to find the truth by removing human bias - beliefs, assumptions, stupidity etc. In the case of modern medicine, the right way to think of it is as 'evidence-based medicine' - and who in their right mind wouldn't want that?

OK, it's not perfect, but the way to improve it is by better, more rigorous science, not just making something up and asking people's opinion if they feel better.

Pinkorchid said:

They say faith can move mountains so if someone has enough faith that a genuine alternative medication will work for them and sometimes it just does Maybe we should all have more faith in alternative treatments they just may work for us and how much better that would. I think Prince Charles is a big believer in Holistic remedies

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Well, the problem with the placebo effect is that a) it's immoral to lie to people when you know the treatment is fake, and b) it's only a little bit effective and only useful in a few types of illness - if you've got Rabies, or Appendicitis, it's not going to do you any good.

Even when it does have some effect, it's pretty poor at what it does and the main reason people talk about it is not as a treatment but the absolute LOWER baseline of what's effective - i.e. it's almost the same effect as doing nothing, or making up something. It's not an achievement.

Pipp said:

But, seriously, meditation is so much better than meds to control pain or stress/anxiety.

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Hope you don't need major surgery.

ChrisSamsDad said:

Well, the problem with the placebo effect is that a) it's immoral to lie to people when you know the treatment is fake, and b) it's only a little bit effective and only useful in a few types of illness - if you've got Rabies, or Appendicitis, it's not going to do you any good.

Even when it does have some effect, it's pretty poor at what it does and the main reason people talk about it is not as a treatment but the absolute LOWER baseline of what's effective - i.e. it's almost the same effect as doing nothing, or making up something. It's not an achievement.

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I used to have absolute faith in modern medicine. I was prescribed a drug and treatment that didn't work. I looked elsewhere, to supplements. They worked. Now surely the placebo effect would have worked with the modern medicine if I was the sort of person susceptible to it? I had no faith in the supplements at the time, it was just a desperate last ditch attempt to get help. Also if someone is deficient in a particular mineral or vitamin then it makes sense that supplements will help. Modern medicine often doesn't look at this aspect at all, let alone thinking of actually testing for deficiencies. I had to pay privately for tests to prove that my thyroid was underactive, and that I had a vit D and B12 deficiency. I wouldn't even had guessed that this was what was wrong with me had it not been for a naturopath.

Both modern medicine and alternative medicine are useful. To me, the only science that matters is if my health improves or not.

ChrisSamsDad said:

Well, the problem with the placebo effect is that a) it's immoral to lie to people when you know the treatment is fake, and b) it's only a little bit effective and only useful in a few types of illness - if you've got Rabies, or Appendicitis, it's not going to do you any good.

Even when it does have some effect, it's pretty poor at what it does and the main reason people talk about it is not as a treatment but the absolute LOWER baseline of what's effective - i.e. it's almost the same effect as doing nothing, or making up something. It's not an achievement.

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I think when people take part in a medication trial they are told that placebos will be used they just don't know who has them I don't call that immoral

ChrisSamsDad said:

Well, that's not actually true in the case of Chinese Medicine, it was mostly made up by the Chinese Communists as a way of avoiding any cultural influence from the west (this is a great article about it: http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...igins_mao_invented_it_but_didn_t_believe.html ) , and anyway, just because something has been around a long time, doesn't mean it's better, in fact, usually not - they used to treat people as if illnesses were all due to imbalances of the humours, demonic posession or witchcraft, and it mostly ended up being ineffective, the whole point of scientific endeavour is to find the truth by removing human bias - beliefs, assumptions, stupidity etc. In the case of modern medicine, the right way to think of it is as 'evidence-based medicine' - and who in their right mind wouldn't want that?

OK, it's not perfect, but the way to improve it is by better, more rigorous science, not just making something up and asking people's opinion if they feel better.

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I was able to review some of the statistical analysis used to justify the use of some medications in modern medicine, and although I am not a professor or a statistics guru, I do know enough to detect when the data does not stack up. I did this off my own bat, but I note that many others have also drawn the same conclusions. In a major step, the analyical method used (PETO) has been discounted since 2006 and cannot be used any more. but the original findings based on that analysis has not been rescinded, and we are still left with snake oil being peddled by the drug companies, even though the science they use is proven to be totally made up. So who are the charlatans now?

Long before they were banned, I had concluded that Actos and Avandia trials data had been misrepresented, and that there was a higher risk of CVE from them. I also concluded that the trials used to justify statin use were incorrectly interpreted and reported. So I do not trust the so called independance of the scientific data formulated by the drug companues and the learned comittees that they use to rubber stamp their reports. We saw this recently where a report in the news said one thing, but omitted to add the register of interests data that clearly showed most of those involved in writing the report were paid or employed directly by interested parties. This corruption is currently rife in our NHS governance, and they get away with it every time. Thankfully the internet is opening up ways to disseminate this info and it is not so easy to control as the mainstream media appears to be. But there is a lot of **** out there too, and charlatans appear everywhere.

Oldvatr said:

I was able to review some of the statistical analysis used to justify the use of some medications in modern medicine, and although I am not a professor or a statistics guru, I do know enough to detect when the data does not stack up. I did this off my own bat, but I note that many others have also drawn the same conclusions. In a major step, the analyical method used (PETO) has been discounted since 2006 and cannot be used any more. but the original findings based on that analysis has not been rescinded, and we are still left with snake oil being peddled by the drug companies, even though the science they use is proven to be totally made up. So who are the charlatans now?

Long before they were banned, I had concluded that Actos and Avandia trials data had been misrepresented, and that there was a higher risk of CVE from them. I also concluded that the trials used to justify statin use were incorrectly interpreted and reported. So I do not trust the so called independance of the scientific data formulated by the drug companues and the learned comittees that they use to rubber stamp their reports. We saw this recently where a report in the news said one thing, but omitted to add the register of interests data that clearly showed most of those involved in writing the report were paid or employed directly by interested parties. This corruption is currently rife in our NHS governance, and they get away with it every time. Thankfully the internet is opening up ways to disseminate this info and it is not so easy to control as the mainstream media appears to be. But there is a lot of **** out there too, and charlatans appear everywhere.

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That might well be true, but the answer to bad science and corruption in medicine is not 'alternative medicine' it's better, more thorough science - just as the answer to a corrupt justice system is a less corruption, not a lynch-mob.

Pinkorchid said:

I think when people take part in a medication trial they are told that placebos will be used they just don't know who has them I don't call that immoral

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No, that's not immoral, and the funny thing is you still get the placebo effect even if you know you're taking the placebo treatment. No, the immoral thing is giving a patient a placebo and trying to convince them it's something more effective. Many advocates for alternative treatments suggest this in cases when the evidence is clearly that the effect of an alternative treatment is no better than placebo - such as with homeopathy and acupuncture.

zand said:

I used to have absolute faith in modern medicine. I was prescribed a drug and treatment that didn't work. I looked elsewhere, to supplements. They worked. Now surely the placebo effect would have worked with the modern medicine if I was the sort of person susceptible to it? I had no faith in the supplements at the time, it was just a desperate last ditch attempt to get help. Also if someone is deficient in a particular mineral or vitamin then it makes sense that supplements will help. Modern medicine often doesn't look at this aspect at all, let alone thinking of actually testing for deficiencies. I had to pay privately for tests to prove that my thyroid was underactive, and that I had a vit D and B12 deficiency. I wouldn't even had guessed that this was what was wrong with me had it not been for a naturopath.

Both modern medicine and alternative medicine are useful. To me, the only science that matters is if my health improves or not.

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Well, vitamins are hardly alternative medicine, they're pretty much mainstream, but alternative medicine practitioners love 'prescribing' them in large doses, because they're fairly safe on the whole, and many people have a deficiency because of illness or lifestyle, so it's reasonable shot. A Naturopath is not a doctor, or even a trained medical professional - you might just as well take advice off the bloke down the bike shop - occasionally he'll get it right too.

It sounds like you gave your doctor one chance to get your treatment right, it often isn't that simple - doctors will treat you for what is the most likely, then if that doesn't work, they'll move on. The Placebo effect is only really useful for a few symptoms which are quite intangible - it could for example reduce your perceived level of pain, or help you feel more positive until your body heals itself - which for a lot of illnesses - it does.

I'm glad you found the key to improving your health - but there's a very important principle to remember - You know what they call alternative medicine that's PROVEN to work? - Medicine.

ChrisSamsDad said:

That might well be true, but the answer to bad science and corruption in medicine is not 'alternative medicine' it's better, more thorough science - just as the answer to a corrupt justice system is a less corruption, not a lynch-mob.

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I agree with you on that, but the problem is that as more and more 'scientific evidence' is shown to be corrupted, then more people will distrust the white coats, and turn to alternative treatments. We already have a strong anti Big Pharma attitude showing on this forum, and the Powers that be seem oblivious that their ploys are becoming unsustainable. They are still persisting with their attempts to hoodwink the general public as evidenced last month. As a scientific based engineer, I would love scientific methods to prevail, but sadly we now see greed as the prime motive.

The medical profession is fast losing credibility, and urgently needs independant assessors to oversee the veracity of claims being made, regardless of who is making the claims, This should have been PHE and NICE and other recognised bodies, but it seems they are now fully owned, in a way like FIFA became. It used to be newspaper barons behind it, but now even they seem to dance to a different piper.

ChrisSamsDad said:

It sounds like you gave your doctor one chance to get your treatment right, it often isn't that simple - doctors will treat you for what is the most likely, then if that doesn't work, they'll move on. The Placebo effect is only really useful for a few symptoms which are quite intangible - it could for example reduce your perceived level of pain, or help you feel more positive until your body heals itself - which for a lot of illnesses - it does.

.

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No, my doctor had nothing else to offer. Just told me I would have to live with it. That's why I went elsewhere. It had to be worth a try, if my doctor was giving up on me then I wasn't going to give up on myself.

ChrisSamsDad said:

,,,,, there's a very important principle to remember - You know what they call alternative medicine that's PROVEN to work? - Medicine.

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Yes but here's another principle. It costs a bucket load of money to get that proof. Even when a philanthropist such as Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg provide funding, they get pilloried for having hidden and dark motives for doing so. In general only drug companies who will eventually benefit from selling a successful product will put up the cash. and it is this that leads to the corruption that we are suffering from today.

If every body paid a tithe towards funding medical research then we would have no excuse for providing poor evidence or for cooking the books. We already pay National Insurance that was originally to provide this type of social funding, so why not lobby the PM to double this tax? Do you think that might work?

I have already listed medicines that have come out of the closet to join the ranks of officially proven medicines, so I wil add a few treatments that have also recently become mainstream. Leeches and Maggots.

In mediaeval days, wounded soldiers used to **** on each others wounds to prevent infection. Now we use urea based products as skin care treatments, and sulfonylurea drugs for treating diabetes. We use ammonia derived from that same useful stuff as a domestic cleaner. Many of these products were 'invented' within my lifespan.

I wonder how many of these products went through proper double blind RCT testing on humans before being licenced? Only the sulfonylureas, I bet. The Ebola vaccine was released for use on humans without having formal tests, and it worked. But it was derived from jungle juice mixed up in a lab somewhere and only tested on animals and invitro trials, But it was not a formal medicine with full track safety record, and we still don't know what long term risk there may be. I mean Larium had better track record and its been withdrawn for long term problems. So RCT trials do NOT give a guarantee that the med works or is safe. Actos and Avandia had full RCT trials and became official meds (for a while).