Apple Cider Vinegar / Cinnamon

I do use ACV - I used to suffer from horrendous heart burn, but once I started on ACV it disappeared and is no longer a problem. I find it lowers BG levels during walks and after and also during weight training. A mouthful before bed seems to be good for me.

As always it's diluted in water to taste.

I think your problems are more then likely dietary related and by the sounds of your decision to reduce carbs, they are probably related to just eating more then your system can handle. You may find (Given time) that your levels will improve more by reducing the carbs, doesn't mean you have to eliminate them, just find an amount that isn't going to be causing problems for you. Which of course will vary from person to person. Good luck.

There are many things that can have some beneficial effect on regular insulin sensitivity but, in my experience, they do absolutely nothing at all to combat genuine hyperinsulinemic resistance. Carbohydrate restriction will bring about far greater benefits than either cinnamon or apple cider vinegar, but that is of course a personal choice that you are free to make.

Quite honestly, Andy, I would shift your focus from peripheral side-shows like ACV and squarely onto the main act, which is getting those carbs down. Anything else is just a distraction.

You are eating twice as many carbs in one meal as I do in two days - I keep under 40 gm of carbs a day to get normal numbers, or as close as I can manage. That might be the underlying problem.
I use cinnamon and ACV to aid digestion - that might be what it is doing for you too.

If it's any consolation neither ACV or cinnamon made a blind bit of difference to me. Must have similar wiring.

andyR57 said:

then when fasting about the 4 - 5 hour mark my sugars are elevated [sometimes to the levels just after eating]

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I experienced this and so do others I believe.

andyR57 said:

Exercise in the morning always increases my readings

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Exercise does increase BG, it's a known thing

andyR57 said:

My morning fasting readings are always a lot higher than my prior bedtime reading even after a 16 hour fast

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yup me too, and others....

andyR57 said:

I don't understand any of it

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waves hello

andyR57 said:

I also, was brought up to avoid fat and it just does not seem right to be eating it

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oh yes, it's all upside down in diabetes world

andyR57 said:

Added to this is the fact a low carbs diet is not a cure, just avoidance

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nope wrong! it's a management strategy....that works....

andyR57 said:

I was hoping for a permanent solution of reversing the prediabetes

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remission not reversing, you have to change your understanding of diet, food, carbs and fat...keep learning, keep curious....

it's challenging and is "fed up" making but worthwhile cos it's your life and your diet.....
Regards
copilost

Hi Andy, I have been trying to pursue the dawn phenomena, and happened on your posting. I don't have an answer, regretfully, but wanted to make a comment about your carb intake. It maybe that you are already aware, if so my apologies, but there are carbs and carbs - whole meal and not white flour, brown rice not white rice. Bread - Sour dough in preference to yeasted. Hmm, I love some breads, such as Burns the Bread, in Glastonbury, Multi Seed and French Grain, and other artisan breads we have down this way. Trying to limit the intake!

Pasta - Same thing avoid made with white flour. Indeed, these days there are pastas made without any carbs at all, available from whole food stores. Check out Earthfare in Glastonbury, or Wild Oats in Bristol, if you can't find in your locality.

Potatoes - extreme 'yin' in effect, so should be seriously limited or avoided. Starches so simple they turn to sugar by cooking before being eaten. Definitely should not be eaten as staple food. It was never so in South America, they knew better there....

Adding some pulses to your meals is supposed to help bring down sugar levels.

I have been shifting from Diabetic to pre diabetic and now teetering on normal (I hope), that is apart from early morning reading. Hence my investigation, and arriving here.

I walk 3 miles a day (most days) in one go at speed (excellent for reducing sugar levels), following a heart attack and increasing the distance, including steep hill climbs. I do tai chi, chi kung, ba duan jin. Meditate, visualise, healing most of my life. I was doing all this before the event. It seems I have a genetic state presupposed to raised blood sugar ( brought on by severe body shock, when i damaged my hip 4 years ago), and blood clotting.... But my heart has minimal damage and fully repairable, i am told. so I am getting on repairing it!... I hope there is something in this that helps. Still I am pursuing the dawn phenomena!

Perhaps you are not quite grasping how low carb works - the bit about and then have the carbs and are back to square one - er - no - I have normal levels now, but I am back the state I was at some decades ago when if I ate any amount of carbs I would see a rapid increase in my weight.
I can just about cope with a quantity of carbs, but I would never allow myself to reach the size I got to on the 'healthy' 'cholesterol lowering' high carb diet so it is a single indulgence, and then back to low carb again.
Fasting raises my blood glucose levels - it is my liver being helpful.
Your nurse not knowing about dawn phenomenon really shows just how poor the training is.
Your greater response to carbs in the morning probably indicates that you are more insulin resistant then. I eat fewer carbs with my first meal - no more than 10 gm, and that seems to be the best option.
These days I eat only twice a day, and intend to go on eating this way as long as I have control over what I eat.
I am never hungry - but I do eat fats which is possibly why that is.

I eat Ceylon cinnamon as much as I can and want, and drink ACV whenever I can stand it (Oh I wish I could cope better with drinking it! The pills don't work). But I have such a warped mucked up insulin and blood glucose system I figure every little thing I can eat and drink to improve how my liver and pancreas are functioning - the better.

Who knows if cinnamon positively affects my BG levels? (Too much going on otherwise to be able to see.)

ACV, when I have specifically tested for it, does improve things, especially for treat dinners/desserts once in a blue moon. But not hugely! Certainly not 'a cure'. ACV is wonderful but not a magical elixir, alas.

And I LOVE cinnamon. I consider cinnamon a gift from the gods. It helped me hugely when immediately on diagnosis (and I was diagnosed at a very high level - no prediabetes knowledge for me), when I gave up obviously added sugar to food and drink and in food and drink - cinnamon helped heaps to the what felt like withdrawal (even if it wasn't actual withdrawal, if you don't think of sugar as genuinely addictive) as cinnamon is so naturally sweet.

If it is not like this for you - forget about it! Food and drink should be nourishing and positive for you, especially when you, you lucky thing you, are in the early stages of insulin resistance and blood glucose regulation and can nip this in the bud.

Ditto ACV. The only way, unless it is to deal with a gallstone attack (which is does brilliantly), I can really only cope with ACV is as part of a lovely salad dressing, with olive oil. Thumbs up.

But if you have tried it and don't warm to either cinnamon or ACV - don't bother with it. There are plenty of other foods and drinks that will help you know your insulin resistance that you might enjoy instead. Maybe you are a garlic guy? go for it. Blueberries? Stevia? You love smoothies with cow's milk substitute of your choice and some powdered seaweed product to boost it? See it a boosting your body's health rather than an actual BG lowering mechanism, is what I would suggest.

Mother Nature, and good trade arrangement, has provided us with wonderful foods and drinks that will help us in our fight against insulin resistance, so don't waste your time on the ones that feel like a waste of time for you, or if your BG levels don't respond well enough for you to want to eat and drink it, is my advice, for what it is worth.

Fearing fat is the reason why we have this forum in the first place. hehehe
That being said, as an alternative if you give up all refined foods especially carbs and seed oils and eat more whole foods, that's a start. Also avoid too much fruit . BTW whole wheat isnt the whole food I'm referring to, avoid healthy marketed grains at all costs. eat more "healthy " fats if you are scared of saturated fat.

lastly , you can help reduce the effect of starch by using phase 2, or white kidney bean extract.
lastly reduce the daily eating window as far as possible. 2 meals rather than 3 and no snacks.

my rule of thumb is if I'm a nicotine addict , the best treatment is to give up smoking and also a nicotine patch isnt a suitable treatment as you're still ingesting nicotine. Grains have opiods in them that are addictive . treat them like you would smoking

ACV and cinnamon are really only there to supplement a process and are of minor use on their own and will not be sufficient to effect any significant results.

I think that perhaps the beta blocker is blocking other adrenergic signaling that would normally stimulate your liver and cause it to release extra glucose. Your liver is insulin resistant (from all you've posted that's what I think anyway) so it ignores insulin normally and keeps cranking out sugar in the morning. I too have my BG go UP when I exercise in the morning and DOWN in the afternoon. I think it reflects the liver's extra action in the morning (under the influence of stress hormones and norepinephrine). The Beta blocker is blunting NE's effect on the liver, I'll bet. In fact, I just double-checked this and sure enough this is why your Beta blocker lowered your FBG.

Also, you are hyperinsulinemic and oozing out insulin when you eat, which is why you experience your BG to DROP after eating carbs. I bet you have some type of reactive hypoglycemia (I just discovered it myself, so perhaps though I am seeing it everywhere now.... that said, it is pretty common - far more common than recognized medically at this point). I almost think of prediabetes/reactive hyperglycemia as the same thing at this point. When you eat lower carb, you are not triggering insulin and paradoxically could see a rise from the stimulus of just protein. I doubt it's a big rise, though? The problem with the veg/fish meal not keeping you full is there's no fat! You need fat and protein in the meal, not just carb and protein.

I also understand your pain looking for a cure with a whole-food healthy carb diet. However, your metabolic machinery is clearly damaged at this point. You no longer can tolerate carbs the way you may have been able to when you were a kid. Perhaps you "abused" your metabolic machinery (that's what I did), or perhaps you were destined to have it wear out sooner than the coworker that thrives on a vegan, carbolicious diet 24/7 (yeah, those are all my coworkers).

Ultimately, though, there is a grieving process. If someone told you that you were allergic to something, you'd avoid it right? That's what we have to do with carbs (well, at least minimize them). Now, there are approaches to allergies where people try to "train" themselves to become desensitized. That's what you've tried - you've given it the old college try - and you are not getting more tolerant. Indeed, your BG control is getting worse. Time to take low-carb action! Embrace the beast. Find some foods you love, read some good books to get over that fat phobia. But do it fast, before you progress further down the road to T2D.

Good luck!