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Calculating insulin for fats and protein.

R

Randaaa

Newbie
Messages
1
Type of diabetes
Type 1
do you know website to learn how to calculate insulin dosage in the meals that contains only protein and fats ??
 
You may find some information and a spreadsheet if you search for TAG as this relates to calculation including total available glucose - including from protein and fats. I will see what I can find when I get a moment.
Good luck.
 
Personally I bolus for 1/2 proteins. It is said roughly 58% protein turns to bs and roughly 10% fat. Timing on injecting insulin will matter too as protein is slow and fat slows it more. I find I have to inject either right before or during the meal or infill go low 1st before my food gets there. I try to eat just a few veg to fill in the gap.
 
A very approximate starting point seems to be to bolus 50% of your carb ratio for protein, and 10% for fat (i.e. if you'd normally bolus 1 unit for 10g carbs, then you'd bolus 0.5 units per 10g protein and 0.1 units per 10g fat). However, this will vary from person to person and depending how carb heavy your diet is. If you eat a fairly high carb diet you may not have to worry too much about fats and proteins, but as I for example eat fairly low carb, I am more sensitive to protein. However, I don't personally have to worry about fats, they barely affect my sugars at all.

Also I'd be careful with the timing of doses. If I'm only eating protein and fat, I'll work out the dose, and either bolus just after the meal or use an extended bolus on my pump to prevent a low and later high, as protein takes longer than the insulin to affect my levels.

Don't know if this was much help or not, but good luck!
 

Here's a link that discusses the 50-60% protein conversion theory: http://journal.diabetes.org/diabetesspectrum/00v13n3/pg132.htm

In short, that's based on a 100 year old study that has largely been debunked. It's widely agreed that a good bit of excess protein does convert into glucose. However, "Glucose" doesn't necessarily equate to "blood sugar."

Disclaimer: I'm not saying I think you're wrong, but it's a topic that's widely disputed.
 
Going to tag @ewelina into the thread as she has some useful advice and a link to a website that discuses bolusing based on the calorie content of the meal.
 
TorqPenderloin said:
In short, that's based on a 100 year old study that has largely been debunked. It's widely agreed that a good bit of excess protein does convert into glucose. However, "Glucose" doesn't necessarily equate to "blood sugar."
Click to expand...

For me protein has a profound effect. I did not read the link but I would also imagine what is in the rest of the meal make a big difference. I am extremely low carb so I believe I gluconeogenisis quite rapidly. Now if there were carbs in the meal I'm not sure how that would work.
The OP was asking about a mainly protein and fat meal with the absence of carbs. Not sure if previous carb meals and full glycogen stores would matter either. I eat a keto genie diet so not lots of stored glycogen. I assume everything matters and makes a difference just as everyone's miles vary.
 
Latest paper I can find on the matter published September last year is "Optimized Mealtime Dosing for Fat and Protein in Type 1 Diabetes. Application of a Model Based Approach to Derive Doses for Open-Loop Diabetes Management".

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/diacare/39/9/1631.full.pdf

It seems a few people who post here adopt a very similar dosing strategy.

Cheers
David
 

If I was to be cynical, I'd suggest that that paper simply affirms that the best way to treat HCHF or HCHP meals is using the combo bolus and determining the best split requires trial and error, as many well managed Pumpers have already found out!
 
tim2000s said:
If I was to be cynical, I'd suggest that that paper simply affirms that the best way to treat HCHF or HCHP meals is using the combo bolus and determining the best split requires trial and error, as many well managed Pumpers have already found out!
Click to expand...

Yep, that's the way it seems. If I am to read papers correctly there is just too much individual variation on how we process foods and insulin to come up with a standard that applies to all, just look at how different our ratios can be. This appears to have been in part the problem with the Warsaw method. All very frustrating for diabetics!

However from my perspective the recommendation in the paper combined with your and others feedback (strategies used) are a really good base to work from.
 
It's interesting actually. This is a key issue with the two major open source "Artificial Pancreas" projects. One uses specified carb absorption times while the other works it out as it goes based on carb amount entered. I find the second one is far easier to use and more effective for me.
 
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