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Carnivore Corner

Jim Lahey said:
Coming up on 11 months of strict keto-carnivore. The year mark is looming. I should be dead by now but instead I've never been stronger, healthier and happier. Diabetes is also a distant memory, so there's that too

Can someone pass the salt?
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I know that feeling.. 2 years in July..
 
I look at fat on meat these days and can barely believe I once avoided it. Didn't even like it. I should be ashamed! Just goes to show the power of mental conditioning
 
I was on carnivore for a while, for some weeks, a few months ago, just a little after I've started to fight high BG. I must say those were the happiest days in terms of feeling good with and enjoying meals. Back then, fasting glucose reaction got a little higher (regardless of zero or nearly zero carbs), so I felt I should back up. But most probably it was just because my body was adapting to low carb in general after years of carb abuse.

I will probably sooner of later get back to carnivore in more structured ways, so I am trying to learn more about it. I am reading now Paul Saladino's "The Carnivore Code" (just started chapter 10 today), at least to me it's been a fantastic reading.

One doubt that comes up is if people into carnivore still have to worry about macronutrients the same way other people (following other diets) do. Paul Saladino mentions that the "upper limit of protein in our diets seems to be about 40% of our total calorie intake, beyond which point we might exceed the liver's ability to process this macronutrient".

Considering that percentage, I infer one should look for fat meat. I presume the fatter the better, otherwise at the end of the day there will be more protein than necessary. Apart from what Paul Saladino says, excessive protein could also mean higher gluconeogenesis.

After months trying to stabilize BG, I've discovered that in my case not too much protein is just as important as low carb (maybe because I am thin, BMI = 18,4). If I eat low or zero carbs, but then eat 120g of protein a day, my BG will rise. If I eat less than 20g of net carb a day and less than 95g of protein a day (1.58 gram per kilogram), then I get stable fasting BG between 83mg/dL and 87mg/dL.

So that's my doubt about carnivore. If I manage to eat really fat meat, say prime rib, I would reach my maximum daily quantity of protein with 366g of meat, but I would be lacking in a lot of calories, considering the 2000 calories a day standard. Apparently, with that amount of prime rib, I would get 973 calories, 63g of fat, 0g of carbs and 95g of protein (source here). I'd still need more fat (to get more calories).

How could I be able to get the extra calories (1025 calories, if we adopt the 2000 calories a day standard) without raising my daily protein? Or shouldn't I worry about that and perhaps 2000 calories is not that important anymore when someone is into carnivore (best nutrients, best bioavailability etc)?
 
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Thank you very much for your reply, bulkbiker!

I suppose if I eat 572g of sirloin, I'll get 95g of protein (1.58 g/kg) and 1557 calories. To reach 2000 calories, I would have to eat 735g of sirloin (not a problem at all to me!), but then I'd get 122g of protein.

I don't know if it's gluconeogenesis or there's something else going on with me, but something that was key to my BG getting more or less stabilized was avoiding more than 95g of protein a day (95g to be safe, day after day safe, but things get really bad somewhat above that, really). So with 122g of protein, I should expect my BG getting (not immediately, not two hours later, not four hours later, but many hours later) higher. Unless that the total absence of vegetables on carnivore could change something else, like affecting gluconeogenesis mechanism a bit or (in case gluconeogenesis has nothing to do with it, I really don't know) someone's glucose reaction to higher doses of protein.

Is there any kind of "fat supplementation" that a strict carnivore diet would allow? Something nearly zero protein and with lots of fat? I'm on low carb now, I eat a decent amount of meat, but would like to go carnivore. Nowadays, I supplement fat with a couple spoons of olive oil, or milk butter, or a bulletproof coffee. Things like that allow me nowadays to reach 2000~2500 calories with <95g of protein and <10g of carb.

I'm not sure milk butter would be acceptable on a strict carnivore context (I suppose not), but to me it could be anything that just adds fat, so I could stay below 95g of protein and still reach 2000 calories.

I can't stop thinking about that sirloin now!
 
D@n1el said:
like affecting gluconeogenesis mechanism a bit or (in case gluconeogenesis has nothing to do with it, I really don't know) someone's glucose reaction to higher doses of protein.
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There are various views of GNG some say it is demand driven and that glucose is only produced when the body needs it (or maybe thinks it needs it). My view is that it depends how regularised your body is to whatever its eating.
My blood sugar doesn't spike from protein (or at least not in an appreciable way) so for me I can eat large amounts without problem. Others @Jim Lahey for example have had different experiences.
You, so far as I can see, haven't been eating this way for long so it could be that you still have some excess glucose stored which is released into the blood when eating very little carb thus pushing up your sugars?
Maybe try a bit of fasting to see if the same happens then as well. This will help both release extra glucose and clear it out of the system. Just an idea but might be worth try.
 
D@n1el said:
I'm not sure milk butter would be acceptable on a strict carnivore context (I suppose not), but to me it could be anything that just adds fat, so I could stay below 95g of protein and still reach 2000 calories.
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I add cream to my coffee and sometime eat some butter (just slice and eat)
Im not particularly strict in carnivory and sometimes have a few berries with cream and yoghurt too..
Dairy is considered acceptable by most meat eaters.
An average day for me looks something like this




or this




Hope that helps a bit
 
bulkbiker said:
Others @Jim Lahey for example have had different experiences.
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Indeed, although I recently put my finger on what I think happens. GNG is mostly demand driven, sure, but in those who don't have much body fat to draw from when not eating, there is a demand for energy.
 
Thank you so very much @bulkbiker and @Jim Lahey !!!

I am somewhat in a crossroads with IF now. I've got attached to it, usually I did 24-hour, then 36-hour, then I tried a 48 once with success. I love every aspect of its routine and saw fantastic BG results. Things I thought were fiction were real, like concentration and feeling well. So two weeks ago I tried a one-off 72-hour fasting . The 72-hour fasting in itself went surprisingly well (I thought it easier than 48h!). But I broke it in the most stupid way possible (with a substantial meal), so I got sick (GI) for 2 days. I'm waiting a bit to get back to it, though some say that people below normal BMI (that's my case, BMI = 18,4) should not fast (or at least not over 24-hour). I hope I can get back to it. I'm loosing weight since I've drastically reduced carbs anyway, so not sure I should stay away from IF. I certainly wouldn't like to stay away from it, at least from 24-hour IF.

Thank you also for sharing the way you build your macronutrients, bulkbiker. That gave me a lot of good ideas. I lose a lot of time with grams (kitchen scale!) and macronutrients math every day.

You're right, I've been on this for not much time, maybe it's all too early. I've changed completely the way I ate on last November, and I've made a lot of mistakes here and there (for sure I might be doing some mistakes right now). Maybe there will still be some positive metabolic changes along the way (hope so!).

It's nice to learn that butter might be acceptable on carnivore, or at least it is by most meat eaters.
I didn't reach the point on Paul Saladino's book in which he deals with different levels of carnivore, but I get the feeling so far he is not much into dairy. Well, I am, so your info comes to me as good news (precious news, actually, so now I know I can try carnivore again, even if perhaps not on its strictest version)!
 
D@n1el said:
I know I can try carnivore again, even if perhaps not on its strictest version
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Never let perfect become the enemy of good.. whatever works for you is the way to do it.. it's you that needs to stick to it after all.
 
You sound like a prime candidate for prioritising fat over protein. People say, rightly, that you don't need to slug back vast quantities of fat on keto, but I believe this is incorrect if you are very slim and already metabolically challenged. If your body doesn't want to give up its small fat stores as fuel, then it has no choice but to turn to glucose. And it will make that glucose whether you consume it or not. Prioritising fat over protein will help mitigate this.

ETA: Insulin sensitivity is also a huge part of it. Last night I was 4.2mmol/L postprandial after a 285g ribeye and two duck eggs. Eighteen months ago that would have seen me creeping toward a 6. And I'm still skinny, so it can improve in time. Keep calm and carry on
 
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