Closed loop and pork insulin

tigger

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I just started on omnipod plus libre after 9years on medtronic.

I've been trying to get the closed loop to work but am really struggling.

Has anyone successfully managed this?
 

tigger

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Thank you!

The problems are as follows:

1. When i bolus I know it takes 30mims-1hr for the insulin to start working. The algorithm thinks it works immediately so stops the basal. That means I go high later.

2. There is often insulin on board and it tries to predict when I'm going low and stops basal. Basal tends to have an effect 2 hrs later so that does nothing except i have a hypo to deal with and an extra high later or when the sensor is off just a high 2 hrs later

3. When I've been high it increases the basal and when it doesn't respond as fast as it predicts it increases the basal so I go low later.

4. The activity session is useless as it just cuts the basal when I get to 8.3. I exercise reasonably and at different rates eg cardio vs pilates are different temp basals but this does nothing because of the speed the insulin works.

5. It particularly seems to struggle with meal bonuses. Neutral stays in the system for about 6 hours but doesn't work at a flat rate. It often has a tail hit about the 5hr point. I then get a low whereas before I adjusted basal to manage some of this

I've spent a long time figuring out my basal and how it changes over the day. The algorithm has given me days when I can't seem to get it to a normal level and am eating continually to get levels up and others which are the opposite.
 

Antje77

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Hi @tigger , I'm completely out of my depth here because I'm on pens and I've never used pork insulin.
I expect those pump algorithms are designed with a quicker acting insulin in mind, but I suppose there is a very good reaon you need to use pork insulin.

So no answers from me, hopefully someone with more experience on pump settings has some ideas!
 

Richard F

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It takes some getting used to, I'm using Humalog so probably a better fit. However it took me several weeks before understanding benefits and downsides. and probably a couple of months before I got in the groove, My insulin bolus requirements are far higher in the evening (no idea why)

One quote from a specialist (its now my mantra) let the bolus do the heavy lifting.

Activity function works well for me, but the whole system still needs to 'managed'
 
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Hi @tigger ...
I expect those pump algorithms are designed with a quicker acting insulin in mind, but I suppose there is a very good reaon you need to use pork insulin.
I would be surprised if you can get this system working well with pork insulin. A closed loop system is largely reactive to the current situation (target level, glucose level from sensor and carbs logged) rather than proactive to the predicted needs multiple hours in the future (planned activity, predicted action of slow acting insulin) as you would have been working before you used this system. To work well, a closed loop needs minimal delays between starting and stopping insulin delivery and it having an effect on reported blood sugar. So, rapid acting and decaying insulin with a fast responding low-noise glucose monitor are the gold standard.

Animal insulins that are slow to start acting and slow to stop will make it very hard for the system to respond appropriately. If you have an opportunity to change to a faster acting insulin, that would probably help a lot.
 
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I have used various pumps and pods over the years. Yes they all do the same, differently.
Insulin is the key. These closed loop types are designed effectively around certain insulins.
Contact the manufacturer and ask about recommended insulin for your system. Your therapist should be able to change your insulin.
However your ratios etc may have to change.
 
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Vickstar36

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I wasn't aware they still made animal based insulins in the uk anymore. After using a few pumps, i'd say what others have said and allow the pump to do most of the work. Your sugars will go up but if working correctly then it should balance out eventually but will take time. It's not a quick fix. Took a few months using the one i'm on now, and having to change pumps for years to find one that sort of works. Never going to be perfect though. Maybe see your DSN and have them go though your ratios and see if there's anything they can change to help you.
 
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oldtypeone

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I just started on omnipod plus libre after 9years on medtronic.

I've been trying to get the closed loop to work but am really struggling.

Has anyone successfully managed this?
I'm interested in this because I will shortly be changing from Medtronic and Libre 2 to an Omnipod/Dexcom closed loop.
 

oldtypeone

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I just started on omnipod plus libre after 9years on medtronic.

I've been trying to get the closed loop to work but am really struggling.

Has anyone successfully managed this?
I am surprised you are still on porcine insulin. I lost my hypo symptoms many, many years ago when the first synthetic human insulins were introduced and was put back on porcine insulin. Nobody suggested moving me on to modern insulins until I asked to go on a Dafne course. Modern insulins are very fast acting and I suspect you need to change to one to get your closed loop to work correctly. Good luck.
 

tigger

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@oldtypeone I had the same experience in the 80s. Porcine is still produced in the UK by hypurin and I am very nervous about losing hypo symptoms again. I had 3 comas in the period I was on human. I'm now over 40 years type 1 with no complications and full hypo awareness. I don't want to upset the apple cart and all I see online is people complaining of no hypo symptoms and accepting this as normality. I know this doesn't affect everyone but I don't care about statistics I care about my ability to live a relatively normal life.

Can I ask which insulin you are now on? Do you have full hypo symptoms? Did it make you put on weight? How difficult was the switch?
 

Judd120

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Thank you!

The problems are as follows:

1. When i bolus I know it takes 30mims-1hr for the insulin to start working. The algorithm thinks it works immediately so stops the basal. That means I go high later.

2. There is often insulin on board and it tries to predict when I'm going low and stops basal. Basal tends to have an effect 2 hrs later so that does nothing except i have a hypo to deal with and an extra high later or when the sensor is off just a high 2 hrs later

3. When I've been high it increases the basal and when it doesn't respond as fast as it predicts it increases the basal so I go low later.

4. The activity session is useless as it just cuts the basal when I get to 8.3. I exercise reasonably and at different rates eg cardio vs pilates are different temp basals but this does nothing because of the speed the insulin works.

5. It particularly seems to struggle with meal bonuses. Neutral stays in the system for about 6 hours but doesn't work at a flat rate. It often has a tail hit about the 5hr point. I then get a low whereas before I adjusted basal to manage some of this

I've spent a long time figuring out my basal and how it changes over the day. The algorithm has given me days when I can't seem to get it to a normal level and am eating continually to get levels up and others which are the opposite.
Hi Tigger,

I have quite a lot of experience with insulin pumps and supposed ‘closed loop’ systems. Before the more modern ‘hybrid’ systems (see below) became available I’ve previously hacked one of my old pumps and CGM and used Xdrip, etc, to generate auto-bolusing, etc, but now utilise a Tandem X2 with control IQ, Dexcom G7 CGMs and Novorpaid insulin.

The first thing I’d like to do is respectfully correct something that perhaps you already know so apologies in advance if you do… you are not using a ‘closed loop system’. A ‘closed loop system’ is a fully automated insulin pump that reacts and self corrects your blood sugar with no (or very limited) input from the user. You are using a ‘hybrid’ closed-loop, which is marketing jargon for a relatively limited and dumb algorithm that reacts in very specific circumstances, often based on limited averages (e.g. most pumps cannot set time-in-range (TIR) or insulin durations, and give only max 60% of required dose bolusing, etc) to help you avoid hypos and control hypers. Sorry if you already knew this, but I think it’s important to start with this understanding as it moderates what can be expected with your pump… expectation management of what these hybrid pumps can do and achieve, I’ve learned through experience, is very important. These pumps are blood sugar ‘assistants’ at best not in any way 'closed loop'… :)

Anyhow, as you’re discovering, like I did, ‘hybrid’ pumps aren’t closed loop systems and have considerable limitations which I believe are likely causing some of the issues you mention above.

First, as mentioned in other comments, the Omnipod is not designed to be used with porcine insulin due to potential flow issues (crystallisation), and most importantly, the time it takes to impact BGL, meaning the pump algorithm, though adaptive to a limited degree within limited parameters, struggles to adjust your levels. Others go into more detail so I won’t. However, I think this could explain your points 1, 2, 3 and 5.

Regarding your point 4, it is my experience that the ‘Activity’ or ‘Sport’ modes in most of the ‘hybrid’ pumps have considerable problems. They just don’t work… they take up to 1.5 hours to bring the pump user to the unchangeable level of about 8.3 – 8.6 (why this number?) and then they under/over react… for a tightly controlled Type 1 this results in often crashing blood sugars. Also, not all activity can be planned 1.5 hours ahead… are you going to get up at 0500am to change your pump to Activity mode for a 0630am run? Google ‘Activity mode problem with Omnipod or Tandem X2 pump’ and you’ll find a rash of pump users experiencing similar issues to yours. I know I have.

Of course, this all depends on the type of activity, your fitness levels, your general blood sugar control, etc. However, add in your delayed porcine insulin impact and I suspect the Omnipod activity mode probably won’t work for you. I regularly climb mountains as a Mountain Leader and I’ve stopped using the Tandem X2 CIQ Activity mode. I just change to a carefully created, through observation and practice, sport profile of 0.1u basal per hour and CIQ turned off (so no auto-bolusing or pump auto-basal adjustments). 'Activity' mode drove me nuts causing unexpected hypos and awful long hypers. I think you need to observe and learn how your body reacts with your new hybrid pump and insulin and with medical advice consider creating a sport/activity profile... what did you do with your dumb pump?

Finally, as others mention, I think the solution is using an approved for your pump faster acting insulin. I know I’d prefer to use porcine insulin with its useful junk cells rather than the purer analogs… anecdotally I feel you can physically see the difference between porcine users (pink, healthier looking) and human analog genetically modified yeast produced insulin users (greyer, pale)… no hate mail please guys its just an opinion ;)… but I’m not sure the current pump technology is there yet, i.e. adaptable enough to the longer impact and varying duration times. I’m sure someone has been successful with porcine insulin in hybrid closed loop systems, but again it’ll all depend on their health, effort and many other different factors. Once a fully, adaptable real closed loop system comes into play I think I will more than happily move to porcine insulin if I can.

I hope this helped. Obviously, I’m not a medical doctor so all advice given above is under the caveat of ‘at your own risk’ and ABSOLUTELY checking with your diabetes team! All respect to my team but I find they don’t know as much as me as they can’t keep up with the regularly changing and sometimes hidden complexities of this new tech. I am still discovering issues and problems with my Tandem X2… still it’s a great improvement on earlier pumps but it comes with complexities due to the nascent technology that have made it far more work than expected and marketed. Best wishes and good luck!!!

P.S. One final thought which I think might help… there is an American podcast called ‘Juicebox episode #662 Control IQ Ninja’ an engineer Dad who has a son on a hybrid closed loop is interviewed. He discusses his journey learning the pros and cons of these systems. Summarising he says that the two most important lessons when using these pumps is to understand they are not 'AI' or 'smart', but actually very useful but limited blood sugar assistants, often highly constrained, and completely unaware of anything other than the data from your CGM. They don’t know you’re stressed, sick, going for a run, etc, so the system makes mistakes... imagine a monkey in a box who can't see outside the box. Consequently, it is also highly important to make sure the data going into the pump is as accurate as possible so it’s important to be aware of how your CGM works, i.e., the common inaccuracy during the first 24 hours and in the last. He coins the phrase ‘Garbage in, means Garbage out’… in other words Garbage (data = CGM, inaccurate carb counting, junk food) in, means Garbage (blood glucose results) out’. So regularly check blood sugars with finger pricking and calibrating the CGM so it is accurate as possible is very important. The best results from these hybrid pumps comes therefore after a period of effort, learning and observing how you and they interact with as exact data as possible, understanding the pump limitations, values you can’t change (TIR, duration, etc), and how you individually react (low carb, right insulin, profile adjustment). They don’t magically give users 95-100% TIR unless they are very lucky or have very stable BGLs anyway. It is worth the effort though!

Link to the episode: https://www.juiceboxpodcast.com/episodes/jbp662
 
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tigger

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Hi @Judd120 thanks so much forbthe really detailed reply.

I'm not brave enough to hack but I completely take your points.

Yes I had come to most of those conclusions too. Interesting to hear that the activity setting doesn't work for most.

For anyone who is interested its perfectly possible to pump with porcine. I've been doing it for 9 1/2 years on medtronic. Before I started I spoke to someone who had done it who told me that pumps were invented in the 70s when animal insulin was the only option. I adjusted my basal with the help of a 1980s edition of pumping with insulin. I've never had a crystallisation issue. It's definitely possible to do but I really wanted to see if hybrid closed loop would give me any better quality of life and numbers. Answer currently is no on both fronts.



I completely agree with you on knowing my body and what works best and am a pro with bad libres having been a user for nearly 9 years.

Thanks so much for all the support and advice!

This is really
 
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Judd120

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Hi Tigger, you are very welcome. I really hope you get this sorted and feel better soon :)

Regarding Porcine insulin usage in pumps I have a friend who has refused to go from his Medtronic 640G to a 'hybrid' pump precisely because of concerns over whether the new pump would be compatible. He has superb control so feels he doesn't really need to 'upgrade' despite pressure from his Consultant. He was the one who told me there were potential crystallisation issues which I then confirmed with some research. I believe it has something to do with the way these hybrid pumps increase and decrease the flow rate through the tubing compared to a dumb pump resulting in pressure differentials that can impact the performance, flow and properties of certain insulins. This is why only specific insulins are 'licenced' to be used in certain hybrid pumps.

Of course, lots of people use 'unlicensed' insulins (is that the right word?) without problems but then it's important to note the pump warranty is voided. Another important factor to consider as not being able to get a replacement under warrenty or the pump fixed could be expensive.

Either way, as I'm sure you're aware these hybrid pumps are lightyears behind what is being acheived in the homebrew closed loop community. Unsurprisingly, the need to make profit and navigate the risk adverse FDA in the USA means this first generation of 'hybrids' are, in my opinion, massively, purposely and overly limited to get them FDA, etc, cleared... hence the inability to set TIR, duration, phone bolusing, more insulin types, more CGM compatibility, greater algorithm input, the Tandem X2 alarm mania, region locking of features, etc.

I'm not holding my breath but the next generation and software ugrades might fix some of these issues and hopefully provide pumps better suited to your and everyone elses needs. However, I think it is realism rather than cynicism that incremental steps will be provided as they generate more profit...

Homebrew fully closed loop systems, that are highly adaptable, personalised and customisable are already out there since approximately 2021 so these pump companies need to get a move on. The pandemic delay excuse is getting rather worn. The Tandem X3 and Mobi should have been released over 2 years ago now! The X2 was released in 2019 so is already 6 years old and suffers from an appallingly weak and one side only bluetooth connection... Imagine how much your mobile has evolved in that time? The technology, algorithm and knowledge for a closed loop system exists... this is why I'm hoping the Tidepool project generates more pressure to kickstart the fully closed loop system race. Until a 'cure' like the Massachusetts TB vaccine and upcoming beta islet cell therapies come online I think an adaptable closed loop system, rather than commercially / FDA locked hybrid pump would be more than acceptable! It'd also allow you to use your porcine insulin with better results :)
 
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tigger

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Thanks so much @Judd120 that's really interesting. I'll bear all of this in mind before taking my next steps.
 
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richyb

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I'm interested in this because I will shortly be changing from Medtronic and Libre 2 to an Omnipod/Dexcom closed loop.
I have been using omnipod 5 looping with dexcom 6 for a good while. When I started I hated it. Terrible highs, very slow to come down. I was better on manual mode. But my DSN insisted it would learn
But it didn't seem too much. After months of being high I eventually tried changing settings. The basal is set automatically, but the carb ratio, insulin duration and sensitivity aren't.
Finding the best settings for me total changed me. Very happy now. Having lots of 100% or high 90s. But take care work with your team.
 
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