Cowspiracy

Kyambala · Jan 25, 2017

LittleGreyCat said:
I read/saw recently that upland grazing is very "non-green" because on poor ground a very large area has to be cleared of trees and shrubs to let the grass grow to feed one animal.

This reduces the absorption of CO2 which can increase the risk of global warming.

If the aim is to be "carbon neutral" then we should have as much forest as possible. This does not always work well with the needs of agriculture, especially free range livestock.

Hello "Littlegreycat". I used to work with CO2 and Liquid Nitrogen in Cryogenic food freezing. When you extract some of the liquid CO2 from the tank to freeze food you leave an "air gap" in the tank which causes the remaining CO2 liquid to turn into "CO2 gas" so it becomes necessary to bleed off surplus CO2 gas in order to have liquid CO2 gas for food freezing.

I noticed that the CO2 gas did NOT rise up into the atmosphere but immediately fell to the ground and formed a CO2 "cloud" at ground level, because CO2 is HEAVIER than air. (This trick is used on stage and in films to give the impression that someone is walking up in the sky).

A few years ago I asked the BBC World Service "science reporter" to ask the following question of any "authority" on Global Warming: "If CO2 is heavier than air how does it manage to rise up into the Stratosphere to cause Global Warming?".

I am still waiting for an answer. Do you know the answer?

You may be interested to know that GRASS absorbs CO2 just the same as trees do. A "free range" cow lives on 2 acres of grass which is absorbing CO2. You need an awful lot of trees to absorb the same amount of CO2 that grass absorbs. When you burn those trees you produce MORE CO2. A tree basically is CARBON in a solid form.

Kyambala · Jan 25, 2017

douglas99 said:
Farmers aren't stupid.
They know exactly what feed will give them the maximum product yield.
The pricing structure of the feed versus yield is also very indicative of it's contents
Farming isn't for minimum wage in the UK.

Hello again Douglas. To know which product gives you the best milk yield is one thing - to know exactly what that product contains is another story and many farmers were fooled by the words "cow cake" and were unaware that it contained "sheeps brains". Its exactly the same when you go into a well known "fast food" outlet and order a "beef burger" little realising that the product you have just bought only contains 3% of what the average person calls "beef". The rest is hoof, hair, offal, & fat.

douglas99 · Jan 25, 2017

Kyambala said:
Hello again Douglas. To know which product gives you the best milk yield is one thing - to know exactly what that product contains is another story and many farmers were fooled by the words "cow cake" and were unaware that it contained "sheeps brains". Its exactly the same when you go into a well known "fast food" outlet and order a "beef burger" little realising that the product you have just bought only contains 3% of what the average person calls "beef". The rest is hoof, hair, offal, & fat.

I'm under no illusion what my food is.

'lips and a**eholes'

Kyambala · Jan 25, 2017

douglas99 said:
Grass fed cows are very area intensive.
That's one of the main reasons grass fed cows are slaughtered quite young.
Most grass fed cows need to be (legally) finished on grain and bulk feed, as grass simply can't provide the amount of feed needed.
Even grass fed cows are fed extra nutrients to bulk them up before that stage.

Hi Douglas. It s mainly the young bulls that are slaughtered young. In the UK young bulls no market value, because most farmers use AI to increase their stock, so they are bought by other specialist farmers who fatten them up for 6 months and then sell them for slaughter. That's the beef you buy from the butcher.

douglas99 · Jan 25, 2017

Kyambala said:
Hi Douglas. It s mainly the young bulls that are slaughtered young. In the UK young bulls no market value, because most farmers use AI to increase their stock, so they are bought by other specialist farmers who fatten them up for 6 months and then sell them for slaughter. That's the beef you buy from the butcher.

Yes, finished and fattened on grain, and cattle cake.
And perfectly acceptable to sold as grass fed, as they were once, just not by the time it's eaten.
So all the 'grass fed' beef that everyone buys has the same provenance as the burger from MacDonalds.

douglas99 · Jan 25, 2017

Kyambala said:
Hello "Littlegreycat". I used to work with CO2 and Liquid Nitrogen in Cryogenic food freezing. When you extract some of the liquid CO2 from the tank to freeze food you leave an "air gap" in the tank which causes the remaining CO2 liquid to turn into "CO2 gas" so it becomes necessary to bleed off surplus CO2 gas in order to have liquid CO2 gas for food freezing.

I noticed that the CO2 gas did NOT rise up into the atmosphere but immediately fell to the ground and formed a CO2 "cloud" at ground level, because CO2 is HEAVIER than air. (This trick is used on stage and in films to give the impression that someone is walking up in the sky).

A few years ago I asked the BBC World Service "science reporter" to ask the following question of any "authority" on Global Warming: "If CO2 is heavier than air how does it manage to rise up into the Stratosphere to cause Global Warming?".

I am still waiting for an answer. Do you know the answer?

You may be interested to know that GRASS absorbs CO2 just the same as trees do. A "free range" cow lives on 2 acres of grass which is absorbing CO2. You need an awful lot of trees to absorb the same amount of CO2 that grass absorbs. When you burn those trees you produce MORE CO2. A tree basically is CARBON in a solid form.

Brownian motion.
Among other things.
The same way you don't get a layer of oxygen at the bottom of the atmosphere, then a layer of nitrogen above it.

Kyambala · Jan 30, 2017

douglas99 said:
Brownian motion.
Among other things.
The same way you don't get a layer of oxygen at the bottom of the atmosphere, then a layer of nitrogen above it.

I don't understand your answer Douglas. My 2 points were: 1) CO2 is heaver than air and therefore could not rise up into the Stratosphere, and the BBC "science" programme could not give me an answer.

Kyambala · Jan 30, 2017

If they said Carbon Monoxide was destroying the Ozone Layer then I could agree - but the petrol companies and motor manufacturers would complain. Follow the money.

douglas99 · Jan 30, 2017

Air has a density of 1.2041 kg/m3 at 20C
C02 has a density of 1.833 kg/m3 at 20C

But CO2 has a lower specific heat capacity than oxygen and nitrogen.
So, all things being equal, it will require less energy input to heat by 1C. So, as a mix of gas is heated, for the same energy input, CO2 will actually rise to a greater temperature than O2 or NO2, and so will become proportionally less dense.

Ignoring the mixing effect of wind, air turbulence, etc, even in a totally still atmospheric condition, brownian motion, ie the random motion of particles suspended in a gas, from their collisions with molecules in the gas, and also the random collisions of the air molecules, and the CO2 molecules, will disperse the CO2 within the atmosphere. But that is a slow dispersion.

But, the air is never still, so mainly, it's drafts, or movement that disperses the CO2.

Interestingly, astronauts need blown air to breathe, particularly at night, as the warm air from their breath doesn't rise, so it's possible to end up sleeping in exhaled CO2.

Kyambala · Jan 31, 2017

douglas99 said:
Air has a density of 1.2041 kg/m3 at 20C
C02 has a density of 1.833 kg/m3 at 20C

But CO2 has a lower specific heat capacity than oxygen and nitrogen.
So, all things being equal, it will require less energy input to heat by 1C. So, as a mix of gas is heated, for the same energy input, CO2 will actually rise to a greater temperature than O2 or NO2, and so will become proportionally less dense.

Ignoring the mixing effect of wind, air turbulence, etc, even in a totally still atmospheric condition, brownian motion, ie the random motion of particles suspended in a gas, from their collisions with molecules in the gas, and also the random collisions of the air molecules, and the CO2 molecules, will disperse the CO2 within the atmosphere. But that is a slow dispersion.

But, the air is never still, so mainly, it's drafts, or movement that disperses the CO2.

Interestingly, astronauts need blown air to breathe, particularly at night, as the warm air from their breath doesn't rise, so it's possible to end up sleeping in exhaled CO2.

Thanks Douglas. You have just proved that CO2 is heavier than air. But grass & plants will consume most of the CO2 (if not all) which leaves very little (if any) to be dispersed to the Stratosphere. Carbon Monoxide on the other hand is not consumed by grass & plants and in order for it to not poison animal & human life God has provided wind turbulence to disperse and cause to raise the Carbon Monoxide up above the atmosphere. Thus "global warming" is caused by Carbon Monoxide and NOT CO2.

Interestingly, breathing CO2 is the quickest way to cure hiccoughs because it causes the diaphragm to relax. In other words breathing your own exhaled breath using a plastic bag works.

douglas99 · Jan 31, 2017

Kyambala said:
Thanks Douglas. You have just proved that CO2 is heavier than air. But grass & plants will consume most of the CO2 (if not all) which leaves very little (if any) to be dispersed to the Stratosphere. Carbon Monoxide on the other hand is not consumed by grass & plants and in order for it to not poison animal & human life God has provided wind turbulence to disperse and cause to raise the Carbon Monoxide up above the atmosphere. Thus "global warming" is caused by Carbon Monoxide and NOT CO2.

Interestingly, breathing CO2 is the quickest way to cure hiccoughs because it causes the diaphragm to relax. In other words breathing your own exhaled breath using a plastic bag works.

No, I didn't.
That's your interpretation, not my explanation.
I doubt God notices whether the carbon has one, or two atoms of oxygen sharing it's electrons.
But then, I would never presume to speak for god.
And the wind has no sentience.

Kyambala · Jan 31, 2017

Interestingly, if Nitrogen gas is released near to ground level (below 10 ft) it causes Oxygen in the area to increase and thus can easily cause an explosion or cause electrical equipment to burst into flames. Nitrogen gas released higher up is quickly dispersed by wind turbulence. CO2 does disperse more slowly near to ground level - thats why they use it to produce a "cloud" effect in theaters etc..

douglas99 · Jan 31, 2017

Kyambala said:
Interestingly, if Nitrogen gas is released near to ground level (below 10 ft) it causes Oxygen in the area to increase and thus can easily cause an explosion or cause electrical equipment to burst into flames. Nitrogen gas released higher up is quickly dispersed by wind turbulence. CO2 does disperse more slowly near to ground level - thats why they use it to produce a "cloud" effect in theaters etc..

And, as you appreciate, as in life, in theaters, it disperses before the end of the show.

Kyambala · Jan 31, 2017

douglas99 said:
No, I didn't.
That's your interpretation, not my explanation.
I doubt God notices whether the carbon has one, or two atoms of oxygen sharing it's electrons.
But then, I would never presume to speak for god.
And the wind has no sentience.

Thank you Douglas - its a long time since I did my "O" levels. Chemistry is now only a vague class lesson, so thank you for the revision lesson. But I still think that Carbon Monoxide is the problem and not CO2.

douglas99 · Jan 31, 2017

Ca

Kyambala said:
Thank you Douglas - its a long time since I did my "O" levels. Chemistry is now only a vague class lesson, so thank you for the revision lesson. But I still think that Carbon Monoxide is the problem and not CO2.

Carbon monoxide very quickly oxidises to carbon dioxide.

Kyambala · Feb 2, 2017

douglas99 said:
Ca
Carbon monoxide very quickly oxidises to carbon dioxide.

Douglas, assuming you are correct, two questions: (1) how quickly is your "very quickly" (2) then why the "fuss" about Carbon Monoxide poisoning in our cities, towns & villages causing the government to pass legislation requiring motorists to switch off their engines?

douglas99 · Feb 2, 2017

Kyambala said:
Douglas, assuming you are correct, two questions: (1) how quickly is your "very quickly" (2) then why the "fuss" about Carbon Monoxide poisoning in our cities, towns & villages causing the government to pass legislation requiring motorists to switch off their engines?

Carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas, it's not helpful to anything to keep pumping it out.

Kyambala · Feb 4, 2017

douglas99 said:
Carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas, it's not helpful to anything to keep pumping it out.

Douglas you have not answered my questions.

Kyambala · Feb 4, 2017

Douglas have you read this? http://citizengo.org/en/fm/40280-british-values-oath-oppressive-intolerant-and-authoritarian?m=5.

douglas99 · Feb 5, 2017

Kyambala said:
Douglas have you read this? http://citizengo.org/en/fm/40280-british-values-oath-oppressive-intolerant-and-authoritarian?m=5.

Probably wouldn't have come up in a search for carbon monoxide?

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