Hi @Begonia,
I'm not aware of any original research by Fung but he does reference his work very extensively. Maybe others have come across original scientific material but I've only seen the popular blog material which does contain some data, just not peer-reviewed and published in journals. But I have a number of problems with some of the things Fung says. For example, in the Obesity Code book he actually says (...quick pause to check...) that excess protein is stored in the body. In fact, that's completely untrue. Excess protein isn't simply stored as protein. The body cannot store protein. It first gets broken down into amino acids which are then metabolised. So although he's carefully examined the research of others, and he has a wealth of clinical experience, some of his generalisations are questionable, to my mind. I think his emphasis on glucose metabolism provides less convincing explanation than Taylor's Twin Cycle Hypothesis, and Taylor did measure the lipid changes in liver and pancreas, a level of biochemical study which has previously been missing from the literature. I think Taylor's work can completely explain Fung's results but not necessarily vice versa which speaks to the adequacy of the theories. I'm going to read Fung's obesity book again because it might read differently in the context of Taylor's work and I'm sure to have missed stuff the first time. It's never a bad idea for me to question my own thinking.
By the way, the results of the DIRECT trial were made available on 5th December:
http://www.directclinicaltrial.org.uk
It would be really interesting if there were some research on Dr Fung's theories even if not conducted by him personally (as @bulkbiker points out, he is a medical doctor treating patients rather than a researcher). Re the DIRECT study, the results I've seen so far show correlation between the amount of weight lost and the percentage who achieved 'remission'. I think I read somewhere that a subset of the participants had MRI scans to assess fat in their pancreas. I'm interested to see whether these results show a correlation between pancreatic fat and 'remission', thus supporting Prof Taylor's twin cycle hypothesis. (I know there was a previous study that showed this, but from memory it seemed quite a small sample.)Hi @Begonia,
I'm not aware of any original research by Fung but he does reference his work very extensively. Maybe others have come across original scientific material but I've only seen the popular blog material which does contain some data, just not peer-reviewed and published in journals. But I have a number of problems with some of the things Fung says. For example, in the Obesity Code book he actually says (...quick pause to check...) that excess protein is stored in the body. In fact, that's completely untrue. Excess protein isn't simply stored as protein. The body cannot store protein. It first gets broken down into amino acids which are then metabolised. So although he's carefully examined the research of others, and he has a wealth of clinical experience, some of his generalisations are questionable, to my mind. I think his emphasis on glucose metabolism provides less convincing explanation than Taylor's Twin Cycle Hypothesis, and Taylor did measure the lipid changes in liver and pancreas, a level of biochemical study which has previously been missing from the literature. I think Taylor's work can completely explain Fung's results but not necessarily vice versa which speaks to the adequacy of the theories. I'm going to read Fung's obesity book again because it might read differently in the context of Taylor's work and I'm sure to have missed stuff the first time. It's never a bad idea for me to question my own thinking.
By the way, the results of the DIRECT trial were made available on 5th December:
http://www.directclinicaltrial.org.uk
Hi @Begonia,
I'm not aware of any original research by Fung but he does reference his work very extensively. Maybe others have come across original scientific material but I've only seen the popular blog material which does contain some data, just not peer-reviewed and published in journals. But I have a number of problems with some of the things Fung says. For example, in the Obesity Code book he actually says (...quick pause to check...) that excess protein is stored in the body. In fact, that's completely untrue. Excess protein isn't simply stored as protein. The body cannot store protein. It first gets broken down into amino acids which are then metabolised. So although he's carefully examined the research of others, and he has a wealth of clinical experience, some of his generalisations are questionable, to my mind. I think his emphasis on glucose metabolism provides less convincing explanation than Taylor's Twin Cycle Hypothesis, and Taylor did measure the lipid changes in liver and pancreas, a level of biochemical study which has previously been missing from the literature. I think Taylor's work can completely explain Fung's results but not necessarily vice versa which speaks to the adequacy of the theories. I'm going to read Fung's obesity book again because it might read differently in the context of Taylor's work and I'm sure to have missed stuff the first time. It's never a bad idea for me to question my own thinking.
By the way, the results of the DIRECT trial were made available on 5th December:
http://www.directclinicaltrial.org.uk
Yes, I think Fung has a huge amount of clinical experience and clearly has a lot of success with patients. I'm not knocking that at all. Turning that clinical experience and treatment into a consistent explanatory theory would enable the treatment to be refined and made more effective. There are things that Fung says which are questionable and sometimes simply wrong - as in the case of protein storage but maybe that was just an editorial slip. I'm going to re-read it. All of these studies and experience contribute to a better understanding. I too am interested in seeing any controlled trials of Fung's theories but as yet, I don't know of any.It would be really interesting if there were some research on Dr Fung's theories even if not conducted by him personally (as @bulkbiker points out, he is a medical doctor treating patients rather than a researcher). Re the DIRECT study, the results I've seen so far show correlation between the amount of weight lost and the percentage who achieved 'remission'. I think I read somewhere that a subset of the participants had MRI scans to assess fat in their pancreas. I'm interested to see whether these results show a correlation between pancreatic fat and 'remission', thus supporting Prof Taylor's twin cycle hypothesis. (I know there was a previous study that showed this, but from memory it seemed quite a small sample.)
Finding the meal replacement drinks a bit sicky-sweet. Don't have a sweet tooth. Thinking of clear soup such as knorr Chicken Noodle, French Onion, Minestrone. Suggestions?
Week 4 Day 22 Monday 1st January. FBG 6.5 Weight 101.7kg
I can't see any reason for the slight rise in FBG except that I reduced the insulin down to 30 units a few days ago. Since then the level has risen little by little. My cough has gone, I don't feel ill, I haven't eaten anything that might be responsible. I've decided to keep the insulin at 30 for another day or two as I don't want to increase it again. But I do want to see it down to the 5s again. Not happy with the 6s. Just have to watch the level and see if it comes down again tomorrow. The weight is doing its own thing but no change to the plan. It'll be half-way next Monday. Already thinking that I might continue it a bit longer if the weight still hasn't come down enough. It's not a hardship and it could be doing a lot of good.
Yes, this business of the protein metabolism in the liver can be very confusing and I've seen this account many times, but it's important to see the difference between protein breakdown (proteolysis) and glucose synthesis (gluconeogenesis) because they are completely different metabolic pathways. If protein gets converted into glucose by the liver, then a diet high in protein would tend to eventually deposit fat, it would be a lipogenic diet. But as Fung, Taubes and others have pointed out, that doesn't generally happen - though it is possible to engineer it to happen. Protein breakdown produces intermediates that can feed into fatty acid metabolism, glucose metabolism, or ketone metabolism. For those interested in the details... and of course, not everyone is even in the slightest bit interested in the details... but for those who are:Excess protein gets converted into glucose by the liver then stored as glycogen and/or fat. So the body does store excess protein, just not in a way that allows it to be converted back into protein.
Congratulations. I wish you every success.@AlcalaBob - I’ve enjoyed your posts immensely. I’ve just started ND today; excited and a little apprehensive.
Yes, I take the point. Some folks prefer to stop all the meds from the outset but I was a little more, perhaps too, cautious. I agree that for a short while it won't make a lot of difference but one of my primary aims is to get and maintain very good control so, since it doesn't take any more effort, I might as well reduce the insulin bit by bit and watch the numbers carefully. I think you're right that the weight loss was slowed down by the continued presence of the insulin. It might well have come down quicker had I stopped all meds at the outset. And as I'm able to reduce the meds at the same time, getting good control seems a workable goal, at least so far. I just feel a lot happier with numbers in the 5s than 6s or 7s. If this level of BG is maintained, at my present rate of reduction of insulin, I should be off all the meds by the end of the eight weeks, which will please me no end. Thanks for your helpful comment. Much appreciated.As to the FBG, I think you will be very safe with it up to 10 for a few weeks, also having your 2hr post skake BG as high as 10. Therefore as we know that insulin can slow down weight loss, if it was me, I would be a little more relaxed about BG levels. (If I had to choose a target FBG to aim at with the insulin dose, 7 would not be a bad option.)
Thanks. No question of changing the plan or dropping out. Totally committed to seeing it through and even, if necessary, extending it a while. It's good to try to figure out what's going on individually at the moment but we already have the evidence from Taylor and others about the success of the method. If I turn out to be one of the non-responders, that will at least be clear but only if I stick to the ND. I'm not at all despondent, more intrigued.Keep going @AlcalaBob you are doing brilliantly. There will always be unexplained blips and glitches with this mysterious disease.
If I turn out to be one of the non-responders, that will at least be clear but only if I stick to the ND. I'm not at all despondent, more intrigued.
Quite so. I'm already benefiting enormously so there's every incentive to keep at it. I looked at the non-responders in Taylor's data and he makes the point that weight loss of around 11kg dropped the BG down on average from 10.4 to 7 but that "this abnormal level presaged the all-too-familiar deterioration of control" so stopping at 11kg weight loss may seem like a success but it's statistically associated with eventually losing control again. Some folks pat themselves on the back before reaching the most effective level of weight loss. Good to know in case there's a kind of diet fatigue and too early a sense of achievement. Those last kilos obviously make an enormous difference so we have to be in it for the whole deal. My target is 20kg loss, down to 86kg so I might well have to extend the ND beyond the eight weeks. I won't know if I'm a non-responder until I've reached that and maintained it for a while. Thanks for your support. Much appreciated.Rememberr that even the "non-responders" got much improved BG control while using lower does of drugs/inslin. The only people who did not benfit at all, are the people who "cheated" and lost no weight.
Quite so. I'm already benefiting enormously so there's every incentive to keep at it. I looked at the non-responders in Taylor's data and he makes the point that weight loss of around 11kg dropped the BG down on average from 10.4 to 7 but that "this abnormal level presaged the all-too-familiar deterioration of control" so stopping at 11kg weight loss may seem like a success but it's statistically associated with eventually losing control again.
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