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Dr Jason Fung & Prof Roy Taylor both trying to mimic bariatric surgery ?

B

Begonia

Well-Known Member
Messages
120
Location
Yorkshire
Type of diabetes
Prediabetes
Treatment type
I do not have diabetes
I've read quite a bit about Prof Roy Taylors work with the Newcastle diet. Today I have been reading Jason Fung book on fasting. It looks to me like they are both aiming for reversing diabetes by trying to mimic what happens with bariatric surgery.

Dr Fung talks a lot about fatty liver and insulin resistance... Prof Taylor talks about fatty liver and fat in the pancreas. Both say diet is the key to reversal, albeit with different approaches (VLC diet vs fasting... both extreme reduction in calories).

There seems to be a lot of commonality. Can anyone explain whether there is anything different in the underlying science between the two approaches.
 
That is a very good question.

My take is that Dr Roy Taylor is simply trying to prove that T2D can be reversed thru calorie restrictions. Including the restoration of 1st phase insulin response. And is in the process to determine how long that calorie restriction needs to be for higher success rate. The last published result was that 8 weeks of 800 calorie/day works for about 50% of the subjects. Come december he will have results of longer studies with more participants.

Dr Jason Fung is simply trying to get more of his patients to reduce their glucose levels to near normal. And found that intermittent fasting is an effective and sustainable way of achieving it.

You may also want to read up on Dr Valter Longo's studies on cycles of Fasting Mimicking Diet. His proposal is that it is the cycles of fasting AND proper refeeding that will help address/heal the underlying metabolic damages.
 
Begonia said:
Can anyone explain whether there is anything different in the underlying science between the two approaches.
Click to expand...

Yes there is in fact quite a bit.
Dr Fung's belief is that as Type 2's we have become insulin resistant i.e our bodies still make it (unlike in Type 1) but we don't use it effectively. By fasting we stop prompting our bodies to produce insulin (by not taking in any food which causes insulin production) so we can allow our bodies to use up the excess glucose that we have and over time re-introduce a "normal" insulin response. Because you are eating fewer meals this may lead to less calorie intake but the main point is in reducing insulin levels rather than starving. Also fasting has been shown to boost your metabolic rate so you will be burning more of your intake (or body fat).
The ND is different in that the shakes and food 4 times a day will each spark insulin production which means your body won't get a rest. You won't get the reset benefit. Also after a while (and we will all be different here) severe calorie restriction has been shown to slow our metabolic rate so that you need to eat less and less food to stay the same weight which is often why after classic "dieting" you tend to put on the weight you have lost plus a bit because you have slowed your metabolism.
Those are the theoretical differences in approach from my limited understanding.
 
Thanks BB, you saved me the time of typing exactly what you said.

Yes, the shakes will trigger insulin release for meals/shakes while fasting won't. Therefore fasting lowers insulin resistance significantly, while the ND may lower insulin resistence depending on how much insulin was released on your former way of eating compared with the ND eating.
 
Tbh if both have positive effects for some people I dont particularly care about the science.
If they can ever come up with an explanation that shows what approach works best for whome and under what circumstances, then that would be something important and I will begin to care intensely.
Without that level of rigour and utility then we will continue to see almost tribal warfare between advocates of the different approaches
 
The difference between Intermittent Fasting (IF) and Newcastle Diet (ND) is that IF involves cycles of fasting and feeding and this triggers a process called Autophagy. See https://www.dietdoctor.com/renew-body-fasting-autophagy

Autophagy allows the body to repair itself. There was an BBC interesting program on fasting by Dr Michael Moseley. See ...

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvdbtt_eat-fast-live-longer-hd_shortfilms
Research shown in the film shows that fasting can improve health and extend life expectancy. The Newcastle Diet is a shock treatment to burn off visceral fat around the liver and pancreas. Both IF and ND involve reduction of food intake and both have benefits for type 2 diabetics.
 
Thank you @bulkbiker and @Brunneria my insulin resistance is my biggest problem, so now i know to continue following Fung as my priority. The eating only during a 6 hour window of the day is already lowering my bs level.

BB - your sexplaination is the clearest one I have seen so far.
 
I agree - it seems some people are so firmly entrenched in either LCHF or ND they are unprepared to budge. I love the way really scientific people get really off track on the subjects they do not like.

Like you - I don't care - show me something that will help me and I am gonna jump all over it.
 

Don't get too hung up by the four meal thing @bulkbiker - I have the veg and last shake in the same meal (though not the same bowl as that would be a bit weird). I have even missed ones (2 meals) and am considering combining all three into the mother of all meals if I can convince myself my BG wouldn't go through the roof! Also I have done the 18 hour between meals to give my body a rest so it isn't all bad news.
In many of his lectures - Prof T talks about three meals though I know that is a bit vague.
 
ND greatly lowers insulin resistance and hence insulin levels as soon as the fat is removed from the liver. This seems to happen within a week or so for most of Dr Roy Taylor "lab rats". Remember that most people doing ND were eating more carbs than the shakes have before they started ND.

Hence fasting for a few days when starting low carb is of great benefit.....

I am starting to think that the main benefit of "low carb" is that no fat gets added to the liver, and there will be times when the body burns the fat that is on the liver. So it breaks Dr Roy Taylor's twin cycle stopping Type2 getting worse than the person goes down a fat removal process the same as ND.

Resistance training has also been proven to greatly lower insulin resistance and can be added to any diet.

It's a shame that there is no funding to study what happens with Intermittent Fasting and Low Carb using Dr Roy Taylor's overpowered customized MNR scanner.

I expect the "best" diet between the 3 for anyone is the one they are most likely to keep too without putting the weight back on the long term.
 
Hi Fleegle
I'm not getting hung up on anything just explaining the main difference between the two approaches (and maybe showing why I think one is better than the other). As you can see I credit fasting along with ultra low carb high fat with my improved control so when someone asks for the differences between that and the ND I'm happy to explain. Hope you are feeling ok and seeing signs of improvement.
 

Thanks @bulkbiker - no improvement yet I am sorry to say - but to be honest I was having to go so low carb and I had tried fasting and all sorts that I will see this out and report honestly for people to read. Probably my impatience. My own opinion is I am concluding that I have had this much much longer than I had thought and think I will be one of those stuck at 10g carbs a day for life. Which quite frankly really depresses me but there you are. And perhaps as a result over a longer period all will end well I don't know.

Now I know you know this because you have posted correcting me. The ND does not have to be shakes at all (so no spikes) - a number of interviews with Prof T say's it does not matter what food you use (frustratingly after buying all those shakes I have seen the videos myself now). It also says you need to diet for 8 weeks with a max of 800 calories a day which I do not think precludes fasting, IM fasting nor ultra low carb / keto - vegan or anything else. I also don't think that four meals a day is mandatory.

So whilst mostly everything you said was not only very accurate but extremely well put - for the purposes of getting the latest data out there - wanted to put a different slant on both the shake thing and the 4 meal a day thing.
 
Indeed but as you know I experienced such good things with intermittent and extending fasting that I think all should at least try it. I still reckon a low carb high fat 600 cal meal once a day supported by coffees with double cream would be far easier than the ND. I certainly found it so for the mere week I did it.
 
@Fleegle

My heart goes out to you, it really does.
I went through something v similar when I realised that all the lovely quick weight loss, dropping blood glucose and plummeting HbA1cs happened to other people, not me.

This may not be the best time (with you on 800 cal of shake and veg a day), but when you feel able, trundle on over to the DietDoctor recipe section. And google low carb cake recipes. There is still plenty of time for the ND to make significant positive changes to your body. But even if it doesn’t work out, you can still live a life of culinary deliciousness on less than 20g carbs a day. In a very sustainable way.

I can now (unexpectedly and from left field) tolerate more carbs than I expected, but I still choose to eat LC and dietdoctor recipes because I like them, and I feel better on them.

Diabetes (T1 or 2 or 52) is such a long game. You will soon be looking back on these few months since your diagnosis as the hors d’oeuvre, with the next few years as the much more sustainable filling main course.
 

Hi @Fleegle & @bulkbiker, I think both approaches make sense physiologically. My personal preference is LCHF because, personally, I find it easier. Hats off to you @Fleegle for staying on track with your ND and reporting back to the forum! I really appreciate your updates.

I did have a ND-like 'event' a couple of years ago when I lost 18 pounds over the course of a week during an acute illness. I believe that I lost ectopic liver and pancreatic fat during this acute illness. When I recovered my appetite I resumed my LCHF approach and found that it was so much easier to keep my BG's within a very tight range, and, as long as I maintained this range, my weight loss continued 'til it settled at the weight I was as a young adult. I have maintained this weight for the past 2 years on intermittent fasting 8/16 and LCHF. I have no doubt that the rapid loss of ectopic visceral fat did wonders for my metabolism so I really believe that both approaches have merit.
 
Thanks for all the really informative answers. I do understand the differences in eating programs and that Dr Fung's emphasis is on allowing the body to repair itself during fasting periods. Prof Taylor's hypothesis is the twin cycles of clearing out the liver fat and then most importantly clearing the fat in the pancreas.

I guess what I don't really understand is the link between pancreatic fat, insulin production and insulin resistance. Are the two approaches both doing the same thing but by different methods... ie are they both getting rid of that pesky fat in the pancreas and resetting insulin production to be more normal ?
 

Firstly have your fasting insulin level been tested to confirm that you are a classic Type2 with insulin resistance? I expect that one of the reasons that the USA low-carb doctors get such good results is that they correctly confirm someone has Type2 before starting unlike the NHS that just assumes it.

Then have you considered asking your doctor if you can go onto SGLT2 Inhibitors as from what I understand (and a few results on this forum) they will keep someone in keto by lowing BG without increasing insulin levels. Hence allowing a little more protein or carbs. On any given diet they will also result in a little weight loss unless someone eats more to compensate.
 
@Begonia

and may help you to understand Dr Roy Taylor’s Twin cycle Hypotheses. Google will give you lot of additional results for “Dr Roy Taylor’s Twin cycle”

If you have not studied human biology and/or biochemistry expect to have to google lots of words you don’t understand, but with a few hours of study, you will start to understand what they are talking about.

When Dr Roy Taylor talks about a “positive calorie diet” remember that it is mostly carb that drives the process not calories from fat, and it seems that when people eat more fat, they often choose to eat less total calories.

Also remember that we each of a different level of underlining insulin resistance in our “normal cells”, therefore, a different limit of how much carbs we can consume before we start the Twin Cycle going. Some people have such high insulin resistance even when all fat has been removed from the liver that their body can never control BG when they eat lots of carbs, and eating carbs put fat back in the liver however much exercise they are getting. Other people can eat a normal “sensible” level of carbs (as per the NHS eat well plate) once they have removed all the fat from their liver without putting the fat back on the liver.
 
From what I've seen they loose water then nothing more after a longer period. I lost 7-9lb, cannot remember exactly but all just went back on when stopped the med.
Additional gives inaccurate meter readings, I'm led to believe. I think because high sugars til reaches kidneys then lower after that. Hence capillary reading on meter. Damage is still caused by high bgs I feel. It gives false imminent results.
 
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