Embarking On the "Newcastle Diet"

[Glitterbritches]

I was diagnosed a little over a month ago with type 2 diabetes, after visiting my family doctor due to fear of some sort of kidney problems. Good news was that my kidneys were just fine - bad news was that my blood glucose level was over 350.

I was 38 years old, 5'11", about 250 lbs, and a confirmatory blood test revealed an A1C of 10.9. I was immediately put on Metformin and Glimepiride, told it was a lifelong illness and that losing a little weight and exercising might postpone the need to go on insulin.

To hell with that.

Of course I found the 2011 Newcastle study, and of course it gave me hope. So I decided that trying it was worth the risks.

I've been documenting my progress over the last three weeks on Reddit, more as a place to record a diary versus a place to get any meaningful feedback (reddit is . . . rather troll-y). Tonight, after repeatedly finding threads from these forums as part of my regular, incessant internet searching for all things diabetes, I decided to join this forum, and was absolutely delighted. Shocked. A great, active community that seems light years more knowledgable about diabetes than any other lay location on the internet (or, to be honest, in many medical establishments).

Here's my journey as of now, three weeks into the 800 calorie diet:
http://www.reddit.com/r/diabetes/comments/2uk6xu/im_going_to_cure_my_t2_diabetes_no_fatties/ (first thread)
http://www.reddit.com/r/diabetes/comments/2w5brt/im_going_to_cure_my_t2_diabetes_part_2/ (second thread)

The title is a little inflammatory, I know, but I started with a pretty big chip on my shoulder - in my mind, I was the first person after the "Newcastle 11" that attempted such a thing (I know much, much better now). Feel free to follow along if you like, so far I've managed to update daily with my morning tea. My plan is to bring my weight down (with very tepid supervision from my doctor) to 185 lbs, a "normal" BMI, and then reintroduce solid foods to my life, and THEN perform my own oral glucose tolerance test . . . and see how my organs handle glucose. I'm praying for test results in the "normal" range, at which point (no trolling) I will seriously consider myself "cured." I won't be able to go back to my old way of fast-food, why-yes-I-think-I'll-stop-at-the-buffet, stress eating is better than a drug addiction amirite, ****-poor way of eating.

Anyway, I'll be checking in back here periodically as well, but should continue to update reddit daily. Wish me luck!

Esit: and apologies in advance for not having my numbers in the "right" form for all you crazy Queen lovers on the wrong side of the pond

 

[andcol]

Well done for trying it. I am one of those that have seen a cure/reversal whatever you want to call it. I also went back to a very high carb diet afterwards to tet it - think I ended on about 350g of carbs per day minimum but decided I like my fat more as I wasnt enjoying the sugar as much as I used to. BTW my A1c actually improved further whilst I was doing this. I can have a very high carb meal with cake etc and only peak at 8. You can follow my story of my first 3 months from the link in my signature and I created another thread regarding my journey with increasing my carbs. Worth a read as it may help you decide what you want to do at the end of the newcastle diet. http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/moving-from-low-carb-to-higher-levels.58491

Currently there are a few others that are progressing through the diet at the moment. It may be worth finding their threads and joining in them.

We also have @Pipp who followed the diet over three years ago and is doing very well. She will tell you her tail. She also had the "you can't cure" discussions. I never as I refuse to take part in them as all that is important for me is what I can manage and if that is chocolate and liquorice then I am the lucky one.

 

[AndBreathe]

I was diagnosed a little over a month ago with type 2 diabetes, after visiting my family doctor due to fear of some sort of kidney problems. Good news was that my kidneys were just fine - bad news was that my blood glucose level was over 350.

I was 38 years old, 5'11", about 250 lbs, and a confirmatory blood test revealed an A1C of 10.9. I was immediately put on Metformin and Glimepiride, told it was a lifelong illness and that losing a little weight and exercising might postpone the need to go on insulin.

To hell with that.

Of course I found the 2011 Newcastle study, and of course it gave me hope. So I decided that trying it was worth the risks.

I've been documenting my progress over the last three weeks on Reddit, more as a place to record a diary versus a place to get any meaningful feedback (reddit is . . . rather troll-y). Tonight, after repeatedly finding threads from these forums as part of my regular, incessant internet searching for all things diabetes, I decided to join this forum, and was absolutely delighted. Shocked. A great, active community that seems light years more knowledgable about diabetes than any other lay location on the internet (or, to be honest, in many medical establishments).

Here's my journey as of now, three weeks into the 800 calorie diet:
http://www.reddit.com/r/diabetes/comments/2uk6xu/im_going_to_cure_my_t2_diabetes_no_fatties/ (first thread)
http://www.reddit.com/r/diabetes/comments/2w5brt/im_going_to_cure_my_t2_diabetes_part_2/ (second thread)

The title is a little inflammatory, I know, but I started with a pretty big chip on my shoulder - in my mind, I was the first person after the "Newcastle 11" that attempted such a thing (I know much, much better now). Feel free to follow along if you like, so far I've managed to update daily with my morning tea. My plan is to bring my weight down (with very tepid supervision from my doctor) to 185 lbs, a "normal" BMI, and then reintroduce solid foods to my life, and THEN perform my own oral glucose tolerance test . . . and see how my organs handle glucose. I'm praying for test results in the "normal" range, at which point (no trolling) I will seriously consider myself "cured." I won't be able to go back to my old way of fast-food, why-yes-I-think-I'll-stop-at-the-buffet, stress eating is better than a drug addiction amirite, ****-poor way of eating.

Anyway, I'll be checking in back here periodically as well, but should continue to update reddit daily. Wish me luck!

Esit: and apologies in advance for not having my numbers in the "right" form for all you crazy Queen lovers on the wrong side of the pond

Well done for having a go at the ND. It's now walk in the park. I didn't do it myself, although I reduced carbs, lowered my sugars, and dropped weight.

Having read Professor Taylor's work extensively, he states the weight loss (and breaching the personal fat threshold) is the key, rather than the actual regime he used for his initial subjects.

I recently enquired about Professor Taylor's definition for reversal of T2, as ther are so many wooly ideas and no definitive definition I could find. His response was that continuing HbA1cs in the non-diabetic ranges (I.e. Less than 42), or a standard OGTT, again using the standard diagnostic metrics. He did state an OGTT was not altogether necessary. (I couldn't face putting myself through that onslaught!)

Good luck with it. It's far better to be fighting in hope of an improvement than merely to slow the progress. Although, to be fair none of us know how long and improvement we achieve can be maintained, although, again from Prof Taylor, maintaining weight below the point of the individual fat threshold is critical to this, in his view.

 

[Glitterbritches]

Well done for having a go at the ND. It's now walk in the park. I didn't do it myself, although I reduced carbs, lowered my sugars, and dropped weight.

Having read Professor Taylor's work extensively, he states the weight loss (and breaching the personal fat threshold) is the key, rather than the actual regime he used for his initial subjects.

I recently enquired about Professor Taylor's definition for reversal of T2, as ther are so many wooly ideas and no definitive definition I could find. His response was that continuing HbA1cs in the non-diabetic ranges (I.e. Less than 42), or a standard OGTT, again using the standard diagnostic metrics. He did state an OGTT was not altogether necessary. (I couldn't face putting myself through that onslaught!)

Good luck with it. It's far better to be fighting in hope of an improvement than merely to slow the progress. Although, to be fair none of us know how long and improvement we achieve can be maintained, although, again from Prof Taylor, maintaining weight below the point of the individual fat threshold is critical to this, in his view.

Thank you, I've already hunted down many of your other posts for guidance

For me, the Newcastle diet is right because it's so easy, I've always had problems with my relationship with food. The fact that I can straight up rule out everything that is not part of my strict regime makes adherence "easy," and it's also giving me a newfound appreciation for food as fuel. It's that second benefit that I'm hoping to get drilled into my brain to the point where it is instinct, and that will help me maintain a healthy diet/weight after I'm "back in the wild" and again eating fruits/meats/vegetables and the occasional bread and pasta (my ultimate goal is to not have to worry as much about carbs as I have to focus on portion control). The OGTT is what keeps me going - I don't want to manage my diabetes, I want to "cure it," and put myself squarely in the driver's seat for my continuing health.

As a third benefit of the Newcastle diet, I'm hoping all this discipline carries over for the next challenge - finally quitting smoking (I'm bold, but not so bold as to try both changes at once - my previous attempts at quitting almost destroyed my marriage, and that's barely an exaggeration, I got meeeaaaaannnn

 

[AndBreathe]

Thank you, I've already hunted down many of your other posts for guidance

For me, the Newcastle diet is right because it's so easy, I've always had problems with my relationship with food. The fact that I can straight up rule out everything that is not part of my strict regime makes adherence "easy," and it's also giving me a newfound appreciation for food as fuel. It's that second benefit that I'm hoping to get drilled into my brain to the point where it is instinct, and that will help me maintain a healthy diet/weight after I'm "back in the wild" and again eating fruits/meats/vegetables and the occasional bread and pasta (my ultimate goal is to not have to worry as much about carbs as I have to focus on portion control). The OGTT is what keeps me going - I don't want to manage my diabetes, I want to "cure it," and put myself squarely in the driver's seat for my continuing health.

As a third benefit of the Newcastle diet, I'm hoping all this discipline carries over for the next challenge - finally quitting smoking (I'm bold, but not so bold as to try both changes at once - my previous attempts at quitting almost destroyed my marriage, and that's barely an exaggeration, I got meeeaaaaannnn

I have my own stalker . Well, if you want to ask any questions ever, I'm happy to answer (not suggesting I know everything, or a lot, but if you "get" my mind set, I'm happy to help.)

My comments would be that the ND may help I still some self-discipline into your approach to food currently, but it will take something else when you revert to eating more normalised food, when your spell on the diet comes to an end. That for me would have been one of the downsides had I encountered the option early on.

As I'm sure you know, Prof Taylor has some guidance on his website touching on maintenance, but, as a wise man, I think he knows our diets are as personal as our personalities. Have you considered how you will transition of the strict plan, onto more usual eating regimes? I find it's important to have a plan, which can have rules and allowances to accommodate how life gets in the way of these things. Without a plan, it's much easier to have creep and before we know it, it's, "hello yesterday!"

I'm curious to hear where you feel the OGTT is preferable to the sustained HbA1cs, as surely passing an OGTT is almost like passing a single fasting test. Greatly indicative, but not a longer term view?

I have never taken an OGTT, and for some time I was acutely curious as to how I would perform in one, but I'm over that now. I'm ambivalent about the consumption of heavier duty carbs, although I can eat modest portions of potato, rice, and chips without troubling my meter at all. I haven't bothered with biscuits and cakes at all, since October 2013, when I was diagnosed, but then they were never a heavy feature before then anyway. I find the prospect of several days of consuming 130gr+ carbs in preparation for the test just unappealing, especially when I don't feel utterly convinced of the voracity of the result; whatever it would be. Maybe that's the coward in my shouting through my psyche. Who knows?

I'm certainly not as brave as the likes of @Andrew Colvin , or a few others on here who push the envelope, but for now, I don't really feel the need. Perhaps one day my toppling from the goodie-goodie-diabetic-styleeee eating wagon will be cataclysmic and I'll test it all without really meaning to!

Good luck with it all. I can only admire anyone who will to take this thing by the throat and shake it into submission.

 

[Glitterbritches]

I have my own stalker . Well, if you want to ask any questions ever, I'm happy to answer (not suggesting I know everything, or a lot, but if you "get" my mind set, I'm happy to help.)

My comments would be that the ND may help I still some self-discipline into your approach to food currently, but it will take something else when you revert to eating more normalised food, when your spell on the diet comes to an end. That for me would have been one of the downsides had I encountered the option early on.

As I'm sure you know, Prof Taylor has some guidance on his website touching on maintenance, but, as a wise man, I think he knows our diets are as personal as our personalities. Have you considered how you will transition of the strict plan, onto more usual eating regimes? I find it's important to have a plan, which can have rules and allowances to accommodate how life gets in the way of these things. Without a plan, it's much easier to have creep and before we know it, it's, "hello yesterday!"

I'm curious to hear where you feel the OGTT is preferable to the sustained HbA1cs, as surely passing an OGTT is almost like passing a single fasting test. Greatly indicative, but not a longer term view?

I have never taken an OGTT, and for some time I was acutely curious as to how I would perform in one, but I'm over that now. I'm ambivalent about the consumption of heavier duty carbs, although I can eat modest portions of potato, rice, and chips without troubling my meter at all. I haven't bothered with biscuits and cakes at all, since October 2013, when I was diagnosed, but then they were never a heavy feature before then anyway. I find the prospect of several days of consuming 130gr+ carbs in preparation for the test just unappealing, especially when I don't feel utterly convinced of the voracity of the result; whatever it would be. Maybe that's the coward in my shouting through my psyche. Who knows?

I'm certainly not as brave as the likes of @Andrew Colvin , or a few others on here who push the envelope, but for now, I don't really feel the need. Perhaps one day my toppling from the goodie-goodie-diabetic-styleeee eating wagon will be cataclysmic and I'll test it all without really meaning to!

Good luck with it all. I can only admire anyone who will to take this thing by the throat and shake it into submission.

My thoughts on the OGTT - anyone can manufacture a good fasting glucose level (I'm already there). But I view that as "managing" diabetes versus reversing it; comparing diabetes to a bacterial infection, where you can manage your fever a variety of ways (oral medication like ibroprofin, or just always standing in a deep freezer) without curing the underlying illness that is causing your symptoms. You can take antibiotics for an infection, but there is no miracle pill for diabetes . . . Meaning I want to do something that doesn't just get my liver playing nice, but want to see my pancreas/beta cells appropriately respond to glucose. That was the "wow" moment from reading the Newcastle study - how they isolated the insulin response and were able to document massive improvement. If I can "pass" an OGTT, I can give a tremendous cheer and know that my organs are behaving again, and not slowly deteriorating (or holding onto a sketchy status quo). It might not work, of course I can't know, but even if it doesn't I lost a lot of unnecessary weight and will still have ample motivation to better maintain a healthy diet. And if I do pass, then he'll, I just beat diabetes! (And will still have every reason to spend the rest of my hopefully longer life keeping my weight down to avoid any reoccurrence).

That's my logic, anyway. On a gut level, I want to be able to have a piece of naan with my butter chicken, and even some brown rice, and not hate myself for shooting my BG levels up into the 300s. So . . . I guess I'll see. Although if I had to pick between my eyes and my naan, my eyes will every time. Nothing motivates change (and general life priorities) like a chronic, fatal disease, right? I just hope I can quit smoking before lung cancer "motivates" me

 

[Indy51]

anyone can manufacture a good fasting glucose level (I'm already there).

I wish someone would teach me the trick of how to do this because mine is always high. Losing weight, having a normal A1c, trying various supplements etc. haven't worked. If anything my fasting level is increasing over time and I'm not happy about it despite otherwise excellent control.

 

[Totto]

Hi @Glitterbritches my glucose tolerance improved a lot when I quit smoking four and a half month ago.

After 37 years.

 

[Flashtash2014]

I was diagnosed a little over a month ago with type 2 diabetes, after visiting my family doctor due to fear of some sort of kidney problems. Good news was that my kidneys were just fine - bad news was that my blood glucose level was over 350.

I was 38 years old, 5'11", about 250 lbs, and a confirmatory blood test revealed an A1C of 10.9. I was immediately put on Metformin and Glimepiride, told it was a lifelong illness and that losing a little weight and exercising might postpone the need to go on insulin.

To hell with that.

Of course I found the 2011 Newcastle study, and of course it gave me hope. So I decided that trying it was worth the risks.

I've been documenting my progress over the last three weeks on Reddit, more as a place to record a diary versus a place to get any meaningful feedback (reddit is . . . rather troll-y). Tonight, after repeatedly finding threads from these forums as part of my regular, incessant internet searching for all things diabetes, I decided to join this forum, and was absolutely delighted. Shocked. A great, active community that seems light years more knowledgable about diabetes than any other lay location on the internet (or, to be honest, in many medical establishments).

Here's my journey as of now, three weeks into the 800 calorie diet:
http://www.reddit.com/r/diabetes/comments/2uk6xu/im_going_to_cure_my_t2_diabetes_no_fatties/ (first thread)
http://www.reddit.com/r/diabetes/comments/2w5brt/im_going_to_cure_my_t2_diabetes_part_2/ (second thread)

The title is a little inflammatory, I know, but I started with a pretty big chip on my shoulder - in my mind, I was the first person after the "Newcastle 11" that attempted such a thing (I know much, much better now). Feel free to follow along if you like, so far I've managed to update daily with my morning tea. My plan is to bring my weight down (with very tepid supervision from my doctor) to 185 lbs, a "normal" BMI, and then reintroduce solid foods to my life, and THEN perform my own oral glucose tolerance test . . . and see how my organs handle glucose. I'm praying for test results in the "normal" range, at which point (no trolling) I will seriously consider myself "cured." I won't be able to go back to my old way of fast-food, why-yes-I-think-I'll-stop-at-the-buffet, stress eating is better than a drug addiction amirite, ****-poor way of eating.

Anyway, I'll be checking in back here periodically as well, but should continue to update reddit daily. Wish me luck!

Esit: and apologies in advance for not having my numbers in the "right" form for all you crazy Queen lovers on the wrong side of the pond

Hi I'm coming to the end of my ND diet next Sunday will be 8 weeks started on the 1st jan have lost over 15 kilos now way past my threshold of 11 now down to 61 kilos. It's been tough at times I kid you not especially at weekends nothing to do so keeping busy is the key. My BG rarely reaches above 5 now and have been down to 2.7 at times and felt ok meds have been halved trying to see the Diabetic nurse next week to discuss the next step. I'm 45 now and feel and weigh as I did when I was in my late teens no issue with energy either I used the shake the weight shakes they fill you up and keep you full for longer. So fingers crossed I'm hoping it's worked.

 

[AndBreathe]

My thoughts on the OGTT - anyone can manufacture a good fasting glucose level (I'm already there). But I view that as "managing" diabetes versus reversing it; comparing diabetes to a bacterial infection, where you can manage your fever a variety of ways (oral medication like ibroprofin, or just always standing in a deep freezer) without curing the underlying illness that is causing your symptoms. You can take antibiotics for an infection, but there is no miracle pill for diabetes . . . Meaning I want to do something that doesn't just get my liver playing nice, but want to see my pancreas/beta cells appropriately respond to glucose. That was the "wow" moment from reading the Newcastle study - how they isolated the insulin response and were able to document massive improvement. If I can "pass" an OGTT, I can give a tremendous cheer and know that my organs are behaving again, and not slowly deteriorating (or holding onto a sketchy status quo). It might not work, of course I can't know, but even if it doesn't I lost a lot of unnecessary weight and will still have ample motivation to better maintain a healthy diet. And if I do pass, then he'll, I just beat diabetes! (And will still have every reason to spend the rest of my hopefully longer life keeping my weight down to avoid any reoccurrence).

That's my logic, anyway. On a gut level, I want to be able to have a piece of naan with my butter chicken, and even some brown rice, and not hate myself for shooting my BG levels up into the 300s. So . . . I guess I'll see. Although if I had to pick between my eyes and my naan, my eyes will every time. Nothing motivates change (and general life priorities) like a chronic, fatal disease, right? I just hope I can quit smoking before lung cancer "motivates" me

Hmmmmm. I'd suggest your statement ,"anyone can manufacture a good fasting glucose level" is somewhat niaive and unkind to some very committed diabetics. There are members here who have tried all sorts to achieve an even close to non-diabetic fasting score, and their bodies just won't play ball. We are all different with varying levels of beta cell damage or other, contributory conditions.

You state you don't want to have to manage your diabetes, but want to kick it out altogether. Whilst I think that's a natural desire, I think the practical stance is that whatever level of improvement/reversal/remission or any other label you choose to use, we achieve, whilst Taylor believes norm-glyccaemia is likely to persist provided the personal fat threshold is not re-breached, upwardly. That in itself is maintainable/ management, surely?

There are a number of people on here who have run home OGTTs for themselves, and indeed @CollieBoy can pass such a test, but doesn't believe himself to be non-diabetic.

From Taylor's work, only the minority of participants had post-diet OGTTs, so I'm still a little nervous that we have no firmly agree diagnostic methodology for post ND status, but that just cautious old me.

I would suggest that once you have reached a "decent" (undefinined, due to its personal nature), it is likely your body's ability to handle naan or rice with your butter chicken will have improved anyway, although you will discover for yourself what that means.

 

[CollieBoy]

My thoughts on the OGTT - anyone can manufacture a good fasting glucose level (I'm already there). But I view that as "managing" diabetes versus reversing it; comparing diabetes to a bacterial infection, where you can manage your fever a variety of ways (oral medication like ibroprofin, or just always standing in a deep freezer) without curing the underlying illness that is causing your symptoms. You can take antibiotics for an infection, but there is no miracle pill for diabetes . . . Meaning I want to do something that doesn't just get my liver playing nice, but want to see my pancreas/beta cells appropriately respond to glucose. That was the "wow" moment from reading the Newcastle study - how they isolated the insulin response and were able to document massive improvement. If I can "pass" an OGTT, I can give a tremendous cheer and know that my organs are behaving again, and not slowly deteriorating (or holding onto a sketchy status quo). It might not work, of course I can't know, but even if it doesn't I lost a lot of unnecessary weight and will still have ample motivation to better maintain a healthy diet. And if I do pass, then he'll, I just beat diabetes! (And will still have every reason to spend the rest of my hopefully longer life keeping my weight down to avoid any reoccurrence).

That's my logic, anyway. On a gut level, I want to be able to have a piece of naan with my butter chicken, and even some brown rice, and not hate myself for shooting my BG levels up into the 300s. So . . . I guess I'll see. Although if I had to pick between my eyes and my naan, my eyes will every time. Nothing motivates change (and general life priorities) like a chronic, fatal disease, right? I just hope I can quit smoking before lung cancer "motivates" me

@Glitterbritches
How do you define "passing" an OGTT?
1) have suitable BG at "fasting" and +2hr ?
2) as 1) but maintain peak below certain level ?

I can start a fasting BG at 5.0 and come out at +2hrs with a BG below fasting.
My problem is that my initial insulin response is goosed, so i spike to ~10, but once my secondary insulin response kicks in, my BG drops to below fasting levels, usually overshooting.
So yes I am still diabetic, yes I class it as management rather than reversal. if you want your " pancreas/beta cells appropriately respond to glucose" then ensure that your initial response is "appropriate" as this is usually the first to fail.

 

[Glitterbritches]

I wish someone would teach me the trick of how to do this because mine is always high. Losing weight, having a normal A1c, trying various supplements etc. haven't worked. If anything my fasting level is increasing over time and I'm not happy about it despite otherwise excellent control.

Yeah, that might have been a thoughtless comment on my part (in my defense, I'm very new to this . . . ). I know that in my experience, my fasting glucose dropped from the 200+ range (around 12 mmol/L, I'll try to start converting my numbers when I remember) to a comfortable high 80's/low 90's (4.5-5.5) after about three weeks of a low carb diet/transitioning into the Newcastle diet. I was also freshly diagnosed, lost about 15 lbs in that time, and on two types of oral medications right out of the gate.

So I can't speak to your experience (or anyone else's) just my own, and was wrong to do so. In my experience, aggressive lifestyle and dietary changes started hammering away at my morning BG levels within a couple of weeks, which led me to believe that fasting glucose levels are a symptom of T2 diabetes, but that reducing them was not my ultimate goal.

I would note that if your A1C is good, is there much of a reason to be concerned over your fasting glucose levels? My understanding is that high blood sugar is what causes all the damage to your body, and if your A1C is healthy (especially with a generally high fasting BG) doesn't that indicate that your true "highs/spikes" must be pretty well under control?

 

[Glitterbritches]

Hi @Glitterbritches my glucose tolerance improved a lot when I quit smoking four and a half month ago.

After 37 years.

That is positively inspiring to hear (and I need it). I've tried quitting before with zero success, but for the first time my mind actually feels "ready" to let me quit (diagnosis of a chronic, fatal disease might have something to do with that . . .) I always wondered if I would have the inner strength to quit smoking even if faced with a lung cancer diagnosis, and now I'm very grateful that I was "only" diagnosed with T2 diabetes.

I really, really, really want to embark upon the path to quitting while still managing the Newcastle diet, but am (probably legitimately) afraid of taking on too much at once and failing at everything. But my smoking is now haunting me every day, wondering how much better my body would be if I was shedding all this fat and NOT still introducing all the ****** side effects of cigarette smoking into my poor mutinous body.

 

[Totto]

That is positively inspiring to hear (and I need it). I've tried quitting before with zero success, but for the first time my mind actually feels "ready" to let me quit (diagnosis of a chronic, fatal disease might have something to do with that . . .) I always wondered if I would have the inner strength to quit smoking even if faced with a lung cancer diagnosis, and now I'm very grateful that I was "only" diagnosed with T2 diabetes.

I really, really, really want to embark upon the path to quitting while still managing the Newcastle diet, but am (probably legitimately) afraid of taking on too much at once and failing at everything. But my smoking is now haunting me every day, wondering how much better my body would be if I was shedding all this fat and NOT still introducing all the ****** side effects of cigarette smoking into my poor mutinous body.

I always knew I'd stop when I got diabetes. My dad became a very grumpy old man indeed (and he wasn't always easy deal with to begin with) after developing neuropathy in his feet and I knew I wanted to manage my diabetes better. As I have a BG meter this is so much simpler for me compared with when he was diagnosed fifty years ago. He died from heart disease and badly controlled diabetes in his early seventies.

And after 37 years I felt that it was enough so I quit. Mind, I probably would have kept on smoking if I had been diagnosed with lung cancer.

 

[Glitterbritches]

Hmmmmm. I'd suggest your statement ,"anyone can manufacture a good fasting glucose level" is somewhat niaive and unkind to some very committed diabetics. There are members here who have tried all sorts to achieve an even close to non-diabetic fasting score, and their bodies just won't play ball. We are all different with varying levels of beta cell damage or other, contributory conditions.

You state you don't want to have to manage your diabetes, but want to kick it out altogether. Whilst I think that's a natural desire, I think the practical stance is that whatever level of improvement/reversal/remission or any other label you choose to use, we achieve, whilst Taylor believes norm-glyccaemia is likely to persist provided the personal fat threshold is not re-breached, upwardly. That in itself is maintainable/ management, surely?

There are a number of people on here who have run home OGTTs for themselves, and indeed @CollieBoy can pass such a test, but doesn't believe himself to be non-diabetic.

From Taylor's work, only the minority of participants had post-diet OGTTs, so I'm still a little nervous that we have no firmly agree diagnostic methodology for post ND status, but that just cautious old me.

I would suggest that once you have reached a "decent" (undefinined, due to its personal nature), it is likely your body's ability to handle naan or rice with your butter chicken will have improved anyway, although you will discover for yourself what that means.

Yeah, "anyone can manufacture a good fasting glucose" is one of those "inside" thoughts that should not have made it past the screeners I'm very new to diabetes, don't know anyone else with Type 2 (just Type 1) so I've had a short period of time to develop my own opinions and theories on diabetes that are mostly pulled from peer-reviewed articles, internet chaff, and my own experience. In my own experience (freshly diagnosed) I "fixed" my fasting blood glucose levels in a month, so of course, everyone can! (right?!?!). I know better now, but won't edit the statement out as a reminder to think a little more about the basis for my opinions.

As for the OGTT, my understanding is that 7 of the 10 original participants passed the OGTT 3 months later, so that's what I'm considering. My ultimate goal is to simply pass EVERY diagnostic marker for T2 diabetes. That means:

1. healthy levels of C-peptides/no evidence of T1/T1.5 LADA
2. normal fasting blood glucose
3. normal A1C
4. normal weight/kidney function
5. body successfully handles an OGTT.

I have nailed the first two, and expect that in the next two months a follow-up A1C will also report success (be hard not to on 800 calories a day). In two months, if I can keep this up, my weight should be good, and my kidneys are already working like rock stars. But unless/until I pass an OGTT, my body is still "diabetic" in my mind - in other words, my results on this final diagnostic test are no different than any other diabetic who ISN'T making ANY effort to manage their disease.

On the flip side, imagine going to the doctor, and "passing" all five of the criteria above. Normal fasting BG, normal A1C, and a passing score on an OGTT. That doctor would say, "we can safely rule out any concerns about you having diabetes. That doesn't mean you won't develop it in the future, but for now just continue eating the way you always do." THAT'S my rationale - with zero diagnostic symptoms, it's difficult to say that I am still diabetic. Cancer can reoccur after surgery/chemotherapy, but if they can't find any evidence of cancerous cells after a biopsy, and you have no other symptoms of cancer, you shouldn't be telling people "I have cancer" but rather "I beat cancer! . . . and I just need to stay a little healthier to minimize the chances of ever going through that again."

So that's my hope - to cross the theoretical (but empirically studied) "fat threshold" and eliminate diabetes from my diet. Because it appears that diabetes isn't like typical organ failure (once the damage is done, it's irreversible). It appears (and god I hope it's true, and have tons of stories on this forum to support the conclusion) that diabetes is more like getting cut, and that cut getting infected. You can treat the symptoms (fever) if you like, but that infected cut will continue to fester. But if you treat the cut (lose weight to get below the arbitrary "threshold" (determined by your genetics and a lifetime of environmental toxins), your body will heal and you won't have any more symptoms to treat (normal somatic reaction to glucose).

If Dr. Taylor's theory is correct (and if I'm grasping it properly) I just hope that my personal threshold is north of 200 lbs, not south, because that will make lifetime management much easier. But wherever that threshold is, if it exists, I will find it, and as long as it's not at a point where I am dangerously underweight, I'm planning on staying below it. If, theoretically, my fat threshold IS below a safe weight, due to genetics and me just treating my body like dirt for decades, well then, I'll just have to do the best that I can with diet, oral meds, and if necessary, insulin. But with a BMI in the "overweight range" (downgraded from obese!) I've still got a long way to go until I throw that towel in - and I'm super curious to see what I look like without that shelf of fat over my pelvis

 

[Glitterbritches]

@Glitterbritches
How do you define "passing" an OGTT?
1) have suitable BG at "fasting" and +2hr ?
2) as 1) but maintain peak below certain level ?

I can start a fasting BG at 5.0 and come out at +2hrs with a BG below fasting.
My problem is that my initial insulin response is goosed, so i spike to ~10, but once my secondary insulin response kicks in, my BG drops to below fasting levels, usually overshooting.
So yes I am still diabetic, yes I class it as management rather than reversal. if you want your " pancreas/beta cells appropriately respond to glucose" then ensure that your initial response is "appropriate" as this is usually the first to fail.

That's it exactly - primary and secondary insulin response as within "normal" range. Not spiking as high as it would right now or for a standard diabetic, AND also coming back down in to safe ranges as promptly as one of the normies. And of course, I'm not even sure if that is going to happen - that's just the goal. That's what it would take for me to consider myself "cured."

If I take the OGTT, and my peak is out of control, but my body brings that peak back down in a reasonable period of time, I'll be disappointed, but in this particular race with diabetes I'll still smile proudly while accepting the silver medal But that's my view of "cured" versus "managed" - both are very good, and will add years of healthy activity to my lifespan, but only one means that DIAGNOSTICALLY, I can't even be said to be diabetic.

Mentally, I am hoping for the best, but prepared for the worst (well, I say that, but I'd be lying if I didn't admit that if my body's secondary insulin response is still borked after losing 50-60 pounds I'll be more than a little frustrated/devastated). But regardless of how things turn out, for better or for worse, I am motivating myself by saying "man, imagine what it will feel like IF my first insulin response improves to the degree that I "pass" an OGTT! That's freaking epic, man! SELF HIGH FIVE!!!!!!!"

Those are the thoughts that keep me going. But hell, even if I don't see those results - or any good results from the OGTT - my fasting blood sugar is good, the lost weight will have many, many other benefits besides insulin resistance, and I can then just "manage" blood sugar spikes with careful carb counting, the same way countless people are successfully managing their diabetes today.

 

[Glitterbritches]

I always knew I'd stop when I got diabetes. My dad became a very grumpy old man indeed (and he wasn't always easy deal with to begin with) after developing neuropathy in his feet and I knew I wanted to manage my diabetes better. As I have a BG meter this is so much simpler for me compared with when he was diagnosed fifty years ago. He died from heart disease and badly controlled diabetes in his early seventies.

And after 37 years I felt that it was enough so I quit. Mind, I probably would have kept on smoking if I had been diagnosed with lung cancer.

I know, right? I'm afraid that I would have kept on smoking straight through chemo. God this addiction sucks.

I hope that I can follow in your footsteps, and that my diagnosis will end up being a good thing in disguise (in the same way my particularly awful "rock bottom" ended up being a good thing in that it led me towards a life of sobriety without drugs and alcohol over ten years ago). But man, kicking drugs and booze honestly seemed EASIER than quitting smoking the couple of times I tried. I have crazy amounts of respect for you, and I'll be thinking about your post this spring when I'm trying to quit, reminding myself of ALL the benefits of kicking this nasty, delicious, dangerous habit.

 

[Totto]

I know, right? I'm afraid that I would have kept on smoking straight through chemo. God this addiction sucks.

I hope that I can follow in your footsteps, and that my diagnosis will end up being a good thing in disguise (in the same way my particularly awful "rock bottom" ended up being a good thing in that it led me towards a life of sobriety without drugs and alcohol over ten years ago). But man, kicking drugs and booze honestly seemed EASIER than quitting smoking the couple of times I tried. I have crazy amounts of respect for you, and I'll be thinking about your post this spring when I'm trying to quit, reminding myself of ALL the benefits of kicking this nasty, delicious, dangerous habit.

Don't. It's only four and half months so plenty of time to fall off this wagon.

When you do start to stop be careful of other possible addictions. A friend of mine quit smoking twenty years ago and promptly developed a severe alcohol addiction. She is cleans since ten years but she warned me against falling for some new thing. As a diabetic there are few possibilities if you don't want to do drugs as everything including chocolate and wine are bad for you if you go overboard on them.

 

[Pipp]

I was diagnosed a little over a month ago with type 2 diabetes, after visiting my family doctor due to fear of some sort of kidney problems. Good news was that my kidneys were just fine - bad news was that my blood glucose level was over 350.

I was 38 years old, 5'11", about 250 lbs, and a confirmatory blood test revealed an A1C of 10.9. I was immediately put on Metformin and Glimepiride, told it was a lifelong illness and that losing a little weight and exercising might postpone the need to go on insulin.

To hell with that.

Of course I found the 2011 Newcastle study, and of course it gave me hope. So I decided that trying it was worth the risks.

I've been documenting my progress over the last three weeks on Reddit, more as a place to record a diary versus a place to get any meaningful feedback (reddit is . . . rather troll-y). Tonight, after repeatedly finding threads from these forums as part of my regular, incessant internet searching for all things diabetes, I decided to join this forum, and was absolutely delighted. Shocked. A great, active community that seems light years more knowledgable about diabetes than any other lay location on the internet (or, to be honest, in many medical establishments).

Here's my journey as of now, three weeks into the 800 calorie diet:
http://www.reddit.com/r/diabetes/comments/2uk6xu/im_going_to_cure_my_t2_diabetes_no_fatties/ (first thread)
http://www.reddit.com/r/diabetes/comments/2w5brt/im_going_to_cure_my_t2_diabetes_part_2/ (second thread)

The title is a little inflammatory, I know, but I started with a pretty big chip on my shoulder - in my mind, I was the first person after the "Newcastle 11" that attempted such a thing (I know much, much better now). Feel free to follow along if you like, so far I've managed to update daily with my morning tea. My plan is to bring my weight down (with very tepid supervision from my doctor) to 185 lbs, a "normal" BMI, and then reintroduce solid foods to my life, and THEN perform my own oral glucose tolerance test . . . and see how my organs handle glucose. I'm praying for test results in the "normal" range, at which point (no trolling) I will seriously consider myself "cured." I won't be able to go back to my old way of fast-food, why-yes-I-think-I'll-stop-at-the-buffet, stress eating is better than a drug addiction amirite, ****-poor way of eating.

Anyway, I'll be checking in back here periodically as well, but should continue to update reddit daily. Wish me luck!

Esit: and apologies in advance for not having my numbers in the "right" form for all you crazy Queen lovers on the wrong side of the pond

Wish you luck with it. It was the best thing I ever tried to regain non-diabetic BG levels.
As you like this forum can I suggest you put your progress on the blog pages here?

When I first posted about reversal with ND last year there was much scepticism. As there have been a few more successes since then there seems to be more acceptance.

 

[Glitterbritches]

Wish you luck with it. It was the best thing I ever tried to regain non-diabetic BG levels.
As you like this forum can I suggest you put your progress on the blog pages here?

When I first posted about reversal with ND last year there was much scepticism. As there have been a few more successes since then there seems to be more acceptance.

Huh, that blog feature is pretty neat, and seems easy to use. I think I'll migrate the reddit stuff over and start doing daily updates there instead. Thanks for the tip!