energy

Ally,

Even low-carbers need to keep their sugars in trim while exercising. There's a big difference between the amount of glucose needed to do this, and the amount needed to completely fuel exercise.

Apparently, I'm not allowed to put Weetabix onto my list of essential carbohydrates. :shock:

The search continues...

Another useful source of information Sheri Colberg. She not only researches diabetes and exercise, she ' has over 41 years' worth of practical experience as a (type 1) diabetic exerciser and person living with diabetes.' In my opinion a good person to take advice from. Strangely much of what she says seems to concur with what I read from Ally and Dr Ian Gallen.
Heres the first of a series of articles:
Effective Dietary Practices of Active People with Diabetes: Part 1 (Importance of Carbohydrates)

http://www.diabetesincontrol.com/in...etes&catid=64:feature-writer-article&Itemid=8

lots more articles referenced here http://www.shericolberg.com/articles-resources.asp

Incidently, the other evening I went for a swim, my BGL was in the 5s, stupidly,didn't take in any extra carbs and swam 500m fairly gentle breaststroke. I had no insulin other than the residual under the skin (I removed pump) When I got out my level was 2mmol. I'm by no means an elite athlete (I'm a grandmother) but I find that the amount of exercise I do means that I deplete my stored glycogen very quicky.

That's how some people do it, Phoenix.

Incidentally, my search for essential carbohydrate continues.

Timo.(Doggedly pursuing essential carbohydrates in an open-minded and unprejudiced manner.)

Timo

That's how some people do it, Phoenix.

Click to expand...

Well interestingly even Fergus, who as we all know uses minimal carbs in his diet, used dextrasol tablets for his marathon in very much the same way as I do; at the rate of a tablet every 2 miles. I probably start using them a bit earlier than him but I'm also out for longer.
I know from past experience that a couple of dextrose tablets before the swim would have prevented the hypo. This is in line with Sheri Colbergs advice for people whose BG falls rapidly at the start of exercise, seemingly this is a fairly common phenomena.
To me this suggests that some carbs are essential for stamina related activites in many people.

Rather off topic and (possibly not sensible) since we were discussing carbs and exercise .
there is also a difference between essential and optimal, I prefer to go for optimal. See http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10490&page=265 for how the US EAR for carbs was calculated.
This is what Even Eric Westman, not noted for his high carb views, wrote in 2002. The points at the end of his letter show that we don't actually know the answer to your oft quoted 'question'url]http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/75/5/951-a[/url]

Phoenix, from your ref:

Sheri Colberg said:

Carbohydrate intake also helps ensure that your glycogen stores are maximally loaded by the time your next workout rolls around. Keep in mind, though, that glycogen repletion can take 24 to 48 hours, and you need to control your blood sugars well during that time for maximal carbohydrate replacement. If you eat a low-carbohydrate diet, full restoration of glycogen will take longer; you may want to consider taking in more carbohydrate of any GI than your normal during that time (at least 100 grams per day) and taking enough insulin (if you use it) to facilitate the storage of carbohydrate as glycogen in your muscles and liver.
....
If your blood sugars are normal or slightly low before exercise, you may also want to take in 10 to 15 grams of moderate- or high-GI carbohydrate

Click to expand...

Ally is talking about 6,000 cals per day & if that is mainly provided by carbs, it means 1,500 g carb per day. (4 large loaves.)

Sheri is recommending 100 g or 400 cals per day, plus a few 10s of carbs during activity, say about 120-200 g carb per day for normally sporty diabetics. We can live with that.

Actually, Ally has elsewhere recommended a maximum carb intake of 200 g per day, so she isn't violently opposed to reduced carbing. She has even challenged the standard DUK high carb advice. Ally, you are not consistent in your advice. If I had followed your advice following diagnosis, the onset of complications would have been greatly delayed. I was eating up to double that.

Ian

The figure that Ally gave was the figure that Sir Steve Redgrave gave in the article, which had been worked out by his support team...

When I look at what my work involves working with dogs, I know I couldn't do it on eggs and bacon for breakfast, as I would require a very large breakfast to gain enough fuel to see me through the morning, and the rate it would adsorb into my body would match my changing needs, as my job invovles several different types of activity/exercise so I burn energy at verious rates...

I wouldn't like to make any bold claims about what's optimal, Phoenix. It's just that some people can make the alternatives work quite well.

timo2 said:

I wouldn't like to make any bold claims about what's optimal, Phoenix.

Click to expand...

Sorry, actually, nor would I, it is where we draw lines that we may differ. It was a rather obscure reference to the 'DIETARY REFERENCE INTAKES 'report which I linked to. The phrase 'optimal health.' is contrasted to the amount (of carb) necessary to sustain life . (I also think the word was in my head from a reference to the 'optimal' diet a diet which claims to cure type 1, Asthma and multiple sclerosis)

well I knew the minute I responded it would start!! But I work in this area and really am passionate about athletes getting the right advice . There are so many experts !!!

Sid i appreciate you support honestly.

Ian - you dont listen - I am opposed to one size fits all so no one coming to see me gets the same carb allowance - it is based on individuals - quite different to most so called low carb experts who appear to prescribe the same for everyone! Dr B as an example ! Al I have ever quoted are ranges - I am forbidden from giving individual advice - as all HP are on here.

The topic was about athletes and carbs. I use the term generically for any sport by the way!

Athletes need carbs and a trawl of any sports journals will show this - studies 20 years ago by Costill et al showed that muscle glycogen stores increased by using a high carb diet and since them numerous studies have shown that. It takes around 20 hours to replenish glycogen stores and this is a huge factor for athletes competing in competitions - do they have enough time to do this?

So if you are an athlete you need carbs . I have no idea how Sir Steves diet was planned - I am guessing like the rest of you .

But generally for athletes this is what is used!

3-5 hours exercise / week - 4-5gCHO/kg
1-2 hours /day - 5-7 g/kg
mod to heavy 7-12 g ?kg

Athletes vary and so you have to look at the individual.

Protein is also important altho in many sports too much is consumed - it is a myth that the more you consume the more muscle you build - no evidence that consuming more than 2g/kg inc muscle mass any more than 1.2-1.7g?kg. Ofthen the limiting factor is CHO - not enough means protein is used for energy. I have numerous case studies to show this.

Diabetics who exercise are different and have to experiment but the diabetics i work with need more CHO to exercise but have to consider pre exercise meals as well CHO during exercise and do more tests. It is important to keep good records so that when you do an activity again you know what happened last time.

allyx

Never mind about the protein and the CHO, Ally - tell 'em about the fatty acids!

I'd heard that medium-chain triglycerides were the future.

timo - do i detect synycism?

Ally said:

But generally for athletes this is what is used!
For a 12 st 76 Kg person
3-5 hours exercise / week - 4-5g CHO/kg 340 g carb per day
1-2 hours /day - 5-7 g/kg 450 g carb per day
mod to heavy 7-12 g /kg 760 g carb per day

Click to expand...

I would suppose that most of us on this forum would be in the first category - I am, except Saturdays, when I would need 450 g carb.

Is that advise realistic? And realistic for diabetics. My BS would be out of control & I would become disabled - permanently. I'd be in the recliner, not the tennis courts.

Parody, sarcasm and rhetorical questions are my thing, Ally. I'm too naive to be cynical.

I'm sure that most diabetics are going to be interested in ways to fuel exercise without carbohydrate. It'll be ATP with the stress removed.

Ian - that is for athletes - I said that because this topic asked the question - it wasnt really about diabetics.

timo - what do you use to refuel because I am interested ?

Exercise supresses your appetite and eating fibre casues intestinal problems so do tell?

As we speak, I'm full to the brim with boiled eggs and coconut oil, Ally.
I can actually feel the eggs bobbing around in the coconut oil inside my belly, Ally.

Shouldnt this thread be on the low-carb forum?

ally5555 said:

Ian - that is for athletes - I said that because this topic asked the question - it wasnt really about diabetics.

Click to expand...

How many athletes do only 3-5 hours exercise per week :?: That is the amount (at least 1/2 hour per day) we are advised as a minimum to keep active & help our BS control. But not if we need your recommended daily 340 g carb to sustain 3-5 hours exercise.

Jude said:

Shouldnt this thread be on the low-carb forum?

Click to expand...

Certainly not! Not with the amounts of carb Ally is recommending! Its a serious discussion on nutrition for exercise & is of interest to all.

actually Ian you are right - dont know any but it is only a guide that is quoted by many.

most of the athletes I work with come into the middle group but I do have some who are training for up to 8 hours a day - mix of strength and aerobic.

Timo - you ans ny point - no athlete could fuel on that - we need to provide sick bags everywhere. Too much fibre often has the same effect - often before a long distance race we change to a low fibre diet otherwise they may need to find a loo in the race.

Ian alot of the time athletes have to experiment with regimes and i often write them plans for different training days.

allyx