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EU - In or Out + Poll.

EU: Leave, stay or undecided?

  • Leave

    Votes: 83 42.3%

  • Stay

    Votes: 101 51.5%

  • Undecided

    Votes: 12 6.1%
  • Total voters
    196
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Catlady19 said:
How can you guarantee that remaining in the EU will improve the lives of everyone in the UK?
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I don't have to say or guarantee that; I can say what we have at the moment in our membership is beneficial (and it is; if for no other reason than the directives relating to worker's rights). Vote leave is saying; "jump ship" and I'm saying "what's in the water if we do?" The answer "I don't know but it must be better than this" isn't very reassuring.

I ask the question because voting leave is opting for an unknown rather than a known. It can't make sense to opt for an unknown if you don't have a very firm conviction that it will be a benefit for the UK.

The reasons for leaving don't seem to justify the risk and that's all this is; a risk/reward guess. Immigration isn't a real issue, the cost of membership isn't a real issue, sovereignty in a globally connected world isn't a real issue (any agreement to conform to a extra-national policy is a loss of sovereignty - our membership of NATO is a loss of sovereignty and no one suggests we should leave NATO because of that). So, whilst I don't like the idea of an unreformed institution with all its obvious inefficiencies I don't see what we really get for ditching it.
 
Catlady19 said:
But the EU knew we were having a referendum and Cameron went to them to discuss our concerns - he came back with next to nothing. It feels as though our issues have been addressed and cannot be improved - so perhaps it is time to leave?
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I agree Cameron seemed to come back without a massive success there, perhaps that is because the EU underestimated the threat of the UK leaving; they were possibly thinking (in an 'Allo 'Allo bad French accent) "who could be so foolish as to leave?". But now we are on a knife edge and other member states are also expressing major reservations which means it much more likely that key reforms would come. These would be improvements to the working of the institutions but would not affect the core point of the EU which is trade and aligning common interests and improving the rights of us the citizens.

I'm not saying that the EU as an institution doesn't need a lot of work, I just think the core offering is overwhelmingly to our benefit.
 
Dillinger made some good points about why he wants to stay in and that is fair enough, Personally I don't trust anyone of our politicians as they all lie at some point.

If you need another reason why you might want to leave think of the EU as an apple healthy on the outside rotten to the core.

If the EU came out and said it was going to reform itself and make a list of those proposals it wants to change about itself before next week and genuinely started the process, I would consider voting to stay. Sadly I can't see this happening as each country has it own interests at heart.
 
Dillinger said:
Immigration isn't a real issue, the cost of membership isn't a real issue, sovereignty in a globally connected world isn't a real issue
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Obviously these are issues for people who want to leave.
Dillinger said:
we are on a knife edge and other member states are also expressing major reservations which means it much more likely that key reforms would come.
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If this is the case, why don't they speak up now, offer us some reassurance, before it is too late?
 

For me the central issue is democracy which I would interpret as the ability to vote out a government you do not support & vote in a government promising a manifesto that you do support. In the European Union it is appointed individuals [the 28 Comissioners] who have the power to decide what is presented to the European parliament. They are a government that is unaccountable to the people, who we cannot vote out. They do not have to present any manifaesto to us nor indeed do we know their names or faces but they have power over us, as our elected government must implement the directives & regulations issued by them. We have one chance to vote them out on 23rd June & so it is to restore democracy to this country that I will be voting to leave.
 
Lynbarn said:
Personally I don't trust anyone of our politicians as they all lie at some point.
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You don't say

With a week to go I'm still undecided
 
The EU commissioners are appointed by their respective Governments. They are accountable to those governments who are elected. They are like our Civil Service who suggest and draft legislation for our government. They do not pass legislation, directives or regulations themselves. That has to be done by the Council of Ministers, comprising of the 28 Heads of State, including our own Prime Minister. Any one of the Heads of State can veto legislation. They all have to agree.

The Members of the European Parliament (MEPs) who scrutinise and debate legislation, like our Parliament, are elected directly by voters in individual countries. It could be said they are more democratically elected as they are elected by proportional representation. And they are only elected for 4 year terms, unlike our MPs who are elected for 5 years. Our system is less democratic when 24% of the electorate can put in a Government which rules all of us for 5 years.

Edit: And our Government can opt out of EU legislation which they don't agree with, as they did with parts of the Social Chapter.
 
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like I said I don't trust them and as for that failed labour leader Mr Kinnock he is having a right good time at our expense
 

The European parliament is indeed elected proportionally which is better than first past the post because as you say, it is more democratic. The European parliament is therefore more democratic than our parliament but as regards power, it is more akin to our unelected house of lords. It does indeed scrutinise legislation presented to them, however they cannot initiate legislation & do not form a government. When we vote in European elections we are not voting to form the next government or indeed for or against any manifesto that the next government would implement. The elite who in fact run the European Union are unelected are not interested in what we think; they give the impression they are essentially anti-democratic.

The commissioners are indeed appointed by their respective governments but that does not mean they are accountable to us, as we [the electorate] have no say in who is appointed. It is my understanding that the commissioners determine what is presented to the European parliament & hence are more akin to what I would perceive as a government; however, there are 5 unelected presidents as well & I must confess to not knowing who they are or what they all do but they seem to have influence over the direction of the European Union that we do not. Indeed there is a council of ministers as well but hasn't our veto there been given up in many areas in favour of qualified majority voting?

The truth is most of us will never understand exactly how it all fits together; there is no transparancy & if we did understand, I think most of us would be horrified. Personally I don't like the heavy hand of big government; I want to be able to vote against what I perceive as interfering government but there is only one chance I have to vote against the heavy hand of the European Union & that is on 23rd June.
 
I'm voting out
And I would like to point out I am neither a racist or a xenophobe
I am a very loyal loving and kind person

It's not about immigration or trade or security it's just what I would like to see happen

If we leave I won't stand on the top of Sca Fell singing

If we stay I won't stand on top of Sca Fell sulking

It will be decided quite rightly by the people of these islands then whatever happens so be it
 
You are absolutely not either of these, that is so clearly apparent from your demonstrable interaction within this community


Diagnosed 13/4/16: T2, no meds, HbA1c 53, FBG 12.6, Trigs 3.6, HDL .75, LDL 4.0, BP 169/95, 13st 8lbs, waist 34" (2012 - 17st 7lbs, w 42").

15/6/16: FBG AV 4.6, Trigs 1.5, HDL 2.0, LDL 3.0, BP 112/68, BPM 66, 11st 5lbs, waist 30", PWV 7.0. Lifelong migraines and hay fever gone.

Regime: 20g LCHF, run 1 mile daily, weekly fasting.
 
I noticed today, on my way back from my countryside job, the owner of the Gunshop has a Vote Leave sign on the door.
 
It's home, I can try to make my little bit better, though it is getting harder as so many people only care for themselves rather than community
 

We all had problems, this is when we should have become United, not cutting up/off countries, we started the war by telling Germant to leave Poland, so we must have had some sort of relationship with them
 
Robinredbreast said:
I noticed today, on my way back from my countryside job, the owner of the Gunshop has a Vote Leave sign on the door.
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and I noticed on our way back up North from both Herefordshire and a few weeks later from South Wales, there were many, many Leave posters up in the fields - saying Farmers say Leave.

Not too sure why you emphasise it was a gun shop though.
 
Bluetit1802 said:
and I noticed on our way back up North from both Herefordshire and a few weeks later from South Wales, there were many, many Leave posters up in the fields - saying Farmers say Leave.

Not too sure why you emphasise it was a gun shop though.
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Because it's a very small village and as the bus went pass it is in full view. If it was on the green grocers door or the bakers, I would of mentioned them.
ps I am not into guns of any sort
 

Thank you Kevin
 
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