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EU - In or Out + Poll.

EU: Leave, stay or undecided?

  • Leave

    Votes: 83 42.3%

  • Stay

    Votes: 101 51.5%

  • Undecided

    Votes: 12 6.1%
  • Total voters
    196
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Note to add

Mrs Cumbs is voting remain

So that's one in and one out in our household
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Well the deed is done - have posted my vote -after much agonising I've voted remain. I was watching Martin Lewis on the Andrew Neil late night politics show and he said that he was 55% for in and 45% for out and I felt it summed up my own feelings. Whatever the outcome I will live with it as it was pretty close to call.
 
Cumberland said:
Note to add

Mrs Cumbs is voting remain

So that's one in and one out in our household
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My postal vote went to leave, and hubs keeps saying he'll vote leave, but that waits to be seen. I think he was wavering
 
Sable_Jan said:
We can uphold human rights by ourselves. We don't need to be told how, why & when by some unwieldy conglomerate, con being the operative word in most situations
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With a conservative government? I hardly think so, they have already said they would change human rights and get rid of 'red tape'. This so called 'red tape' is usually there for a reason and that is to protect us.
 
Sable_Jan said:
Absolutely, they'll be tailored to fit our economy, the size and style of our businesses, demographic, not a "one size fits all"
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They will be tailored to suit our top 1% and corporate greed with the present government. The UK does have a veto you know.
 
Whilst still sitting on the fence I thought George Osbourne's announcement today that they'd have to be an emergency Budget to tackle a 30bn 'black hole' if we leave the EU was the sign of a desperate man and a desperate campaign to Remain, especially when he said cutbacks would have to be made to the NHS
 

It's an interesting one isn't it. His statement today said "I have the now numbers and the projections. Based on those, this is what I will have to do. Call my bluff, go on, I dare you."


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Lynbarn said:
like I said I don't trust them and as for that failed labour leader Mr Kinnock he is having a right good time at our expense
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The current UK Commissioner is Lord Jonathan Hill, former Conservative MP and Under Secretary of State for Education, then Conservative Leader of the House of Lords (2013-14). He was appointed UK Commissioner by David Cameron in 2014.
 
May I ask what your reasons are then if they are not the ones you listed?

 
I am not sure if anyone is to blame for this, but I am beginning to come to the conclusion that in reality nether side of the Tory Party really wants to be in the EU, they are all eurosceptic's at heart.

Like I have said before you can't trust any of them, you also cant trust the Tory Press either.

I am aiming this email to those of you who are undecided at present, please take a look at the following
http://ec.europa.eu/index_en.htm

May be it is my own laziness to find out stuff or more than likely it just part of the nation passion to dislike Johnny foreigner. Like it or not this country is right wing in its view and always has been. This maybe down to the fact that we are an Island and have always considered ourselves as not needing anyone else and that we can do pretty much as we please.

Mainland Europe on the other hand is more co-operative and left of center when it comes to the political spectrum, so you are going to get a clash of ideals between the two trains of thought.

When I was much younger I was more involved with the then (pre-Blair) Labour Party, it stood for what I though where my Ideals of being fair, and everyone should have an equal rights etc, sadly as you get older you realise that life is not always about being fair and in most cases we tend to drift to the right of the political spectrum.

The one thing which is clear about the EU debate is that most of the political classes want to stay in but are so bad at communicating the EU message that between them they have all to a large extent, managed to turn off about 50% of the people in the UK towards the EU, both sides have resorted to operation fear and it is working, simply because the way we are educated in this country.

Sadly for any left of center thinking person Mr Blair managed to corrupt the labour party so much with the idea of winning at any cost, that a lot of people now feel lost and are in a void politically speaking, Now you would think that Jeremy Corbyn who is left of center on the political scheme of things would be pro-Europe, this is not the case. What he wants is to re-establish the traditional Labour party with it old views, but this is not going to work as we don't have the large industries where we had large amount of employees to bring them to a halt. It was reported on the Robert Preston show the other week that most of the current labour party leading group are also eurosceptic, that said, it just goes to show that we don't really have a pro EU stand in either of the two main parties.

My view now is that since then, we as a nation have become so self centered with the mantra of greed is good in so much of the white collar industries in the UK that I do feel that so many people will feel let down with our politicians that they wont bother to vote.

If you also think that it will be decided once and for all next week forget it, we have never seen a turf war like the one which is about to unfold upon us afterwards. So what do I think? Well I would like to stay, but I have a feeling we are going to leave, simply because we as a country are simply not prepared to change our view of the World and the political classes don't want to upset the apple cart. .

I do apologise for the rant but I needed to say it, whats the old saying? divide and conquer, they certainly have done that.

Regards

Colin Rainsbury
 
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@Lynbarn an interesting email. It just about sums the whole thing up. The EU referendum stems from an internal Tory party disagreement being decided by the UK population, and probably should never have got to this point.

I get the impression there are a lot of people with sentiments similar to those expressed in that email, and the only answer is get out there and vote. If you want to remain in the EU, you need to stand up and say so, and not let the UK stumble into leaving, and wonder why it happened.

Voter turn out for something as momentous as this needs to be in the high 80%. I hope it is.
 

We don't live in a plebiscite where the population votes on every issue; we live in a representative democracy where the people we elect are tasked with making the decisions (and frankly should be making this one but that's another rant). So, its not at all undemocratic to vote for MPs and the winning party structure then gets to appoint commissioners who represent our interests in Europe.

A lot of the 'red tape' that the EU implements is in the interest of the citizen and not in the interest of big businesses or governments. We could implement our own protections for our citizens but it is noticeable that we didn't in many areas until 'forced' to by the EU. Think about maternity pay for instance; The UK introduced its first maternity leave legislation through the Employment Protection Act 1975 (which I'd bet but am not sure was to bring us into line with European approaches), that was extended through further legislation, such as The Employment Act 1980. However, for the first 15 years, only about half of working women were eligible for it because of long qualifying periods of employment. In 1993, coverage was extended to all working women, in order to bring Britain into compliance with a European Commission directive on this issue.

That's 1993!

All members states are in the same position as us, our sovereignty situation is not a new position; it has been a fact since we joined the EU. How is it relevant to our day to day lives? Does anyone here have any say in the appointment of the judges to the Supreme Court in the England? No, but that doesn't mean we are living under tyranny.

This is so important that it really worries me that we are potentially torching our own home for no good reason.

The UK is the 5th biggest economy in the world. The EU as a collective is the largest by a huge way. Why wouldn't we want to be a part of that?
 

My understanding is that we have greater maternity/paternity rights in this country than that enshrined in European law & hence it is erronious when the remain campaign suggests [as they have from time to time] that maternity/paternity rights would be at risk if we vote to leave the European Union.

We do live in a representative democracy but lets be honest, when we vote how many of us have actually read any of the party manifestos & how many of us actually vote positively for a party, as opposed to voting negativly to prevent the party we dislike the most from winning a seat? Clearly there is more democracy in proportional representation & even more democracy if important issues are decided [as I believe they do in Switzerland] by allowing the people to decide. A representative democracy requires that we trust those who represent us but how can we trust any politician when they all engage shamelessly in spin? During this referendum campaign there has been so much exageration, distortion, selective use of statistics & lies, how can we ever trust any of them going forward? Democracy is about accepting the will of the majority & only too often our representatives are out of step with us anyway. As regards the European Union I am not talking about sovereinty so much as democracy, the ability to remove a government the people no longer support. The only chance we have to remove the appointed individuals who are responsible for the direction the European Union is taking & who are not normally accountable to us, is to vote leave on 23rd June.

Even the economic argument to remain is weak because the European Union imposes common external tariffs that we have no control over. There is a global market outside the European Union that is much larger than the European Union, we would be able to negotiate free trade deals without the constraints imposed by membership. They call those campaigning to leave little Englanders, however those supporting remain may not realise it but they are actually little Europeans!

If I may give one example of European Union interference that works in the interest of big business & in fact against the enviornment that the interference was designed to protect. Derris had been arround for years to kill aphids [green fly, black fly, red spider mite] in our gardens; it was safe & I have been told it was even used in organic farming. When the EU came along retrospectivly requiring all products to jump through their expensive hoops to prove they are safe, only the newest products with patents [from the likes of Monsanto] could afford to jump through those hoops. Hence new products without any safety history to point to, arrive in a market place where tried & tested products have by default disappeared. Any undetected problem with these new products will then have a far greater impact on our environment than had the European Union not interfered in the first place.
 
KeithSimpson001 said:
Even the economic argument to remain is weak because the European Union imposes common external tariffs that we have no control over.
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We have demonstrated very ably that we have plenty of control over these. We vetoed the tariffs on Chinese steel very successfully and look what happened to the Newport Steel industry. The tariffs that were in place prior to that we were extremely happy with and wanted to keep.

I don't think they'd be at risk, I think that's completely fair. I hope you are aware that is was an EU directive that resulted in the equalisation of maternity leave for all women in 1993, and that prior to that, about 50% of women didn't qualify due to the period of employment required in order to qualify?
 
Lol - @Shar67 I posted that on page one of the debate It actually is a totally different treaty that we signed in 1949 and is not part of the EU!
 
I know but it is like every arguement about politics in this country, we have had our nose into everyone's business, then say nothing to do with us.
 
KeithSimpson001 said:
Greater maternity/paternity rights.

Trust in any politician.

Representative democracy/accountability

Economic argument

Derris insecticide
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The maternity rights we have are a direct consequence of a European directive (which I go through in my post above).

Not trusting politicians is a problem (and I would think we are all frustrated by how slippery they are) but not one that is directly related to the EU vote.

The democratic point is that we have elected representatives who chose those who represent us in the European institution that is the EU. The more we participate the more influence we have. The point about population size and proportional voting plays to our favour as the UK is growing at a larger rate than many European countries; if we stay in we can increase our influence. The EU is not a foreign government it is a collective institution representing the interests of 28 different countries; can we always have our own way? No, but neither can anyone else. Consider the opt outs that we have taken; we are not shackled to a runaway train.

The trade point isn't realistic UK GDP was 2,989 billion US dollars in 2014 and China's GDP was 10,355 billion US dollars (those were the most recent dates I could find for both).

The EU 'GDP' was collectively 18,500 billion US dollars in 2014. Who do you think would get a better deal in a trade negotiation? The UK or the EU?

Derris insecticide. I don't know about that but safety measures must in principle be preferable to no regulation? In 2013 EU member states voted for the continent-wide suspension of neonicotinoid pesticides which are widely blamed for the death of so many bees. A wonderful thing, as far as I can see, which would be impossible to do unilaterally.

Lastly, if you want to take on multinational corporations 1 country by itself has nowhere to go. If we increase corporation taxes as a punitive measure against companies doing something we don't like then they can just move elsewhere; it's only through collective strength that we could reign in a Microsoft or a Monsanto.

I think there is a lot wrong with the EU (not least the preposterous shifting between Brussels and Luxembourg) but we are driving off a cliff if we decide to reject it outright.

Thank you though for engaging with this discussion; I really am interested in what you think.

Best

Dillinger
 
The so-called debate has generated more heat than light of course; and both sides have made exaggerated claims. The Remain campaign seems to have a scare story every day. Osborne suggests interest rates will rise - except of course, if the economy is weaker, and they have to be cut.
It could actually go either way. Both options are far from perfect. The best approach must be to seek to minimise risk. We are basically choosing between a known situation and an unknown situation. Economists like David Blanchflower argue that all the risks are on the downside if we leave. Incidently, today he and two other economists are actually predicting a 0.25% cut in interest rates on 24th June. We'll see.

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