Extended my extended fast.

A note on pee sticks for ketone testing.
The ketones in your urine are those which your body does not want/need.
With well balanced ketosis it is possible to have ketones in the blood and none in the urine.

For accurate results you really need a ketone meter which tests a finger prick sample.

The figures being quoted of over 16 do not seem realistic.

HSSS said:

4.2mmol is a perfect blood glucose level - especially as a prediabetic and ozempic is not a hypoglycaemic medication. The alarms are intended for those that need to take action to avoid hypos they may be rushing towards as a result of medication onboard in excess of need at that specific point in time. So I’m confused why you felt the need to take both carbs and sugar. Even more confused why your dr thinks they need to be higher considering you are reporting 4.2 as being particularly low for you so I assume they are often higher. Could he want to make sure he can continue medicating you. (Where in the world are you?)

ketones of 16, even whilst losing weight, sound excessive, and for your wife even reaching 6 whilst merely low carb and not keto also sounds unlikely - so I’m guess I’m saying I doubt the accuracy of your strips.

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HSSS said:

4.2mmol is a perfect blood glucose level - especially as a prediabetic and ozempic is not a hypoglycaemic medication. The alarms are intended for those that need to take action to avoid hypos they may be rushing towards as a result of medication onboard in excess of need at that specific point in time. So I’m confused why you felt the need to take both carbs and sugar. Even more confused why your dr thinks they need to be higher considering you are reporting 4.2 as being particularly low for you so I assume they are often higher. Could he want to make sure he can continue medicating you. (Where in the world are you?)

ketones of 16, even whilst losing weight, sound excessive, and for your wife even reaching 6 whilst merely low carb and not keto also sounds unlikely - so I’m guess I’m saying I doubt the accuracy of your strips.

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Thank you for your reply. As I am very new to all this, I am not sure what is a dangerous level for BG. My doctor never said anything about checking my BG other than to get a blood test once per month, and eat starches only 3 times per week.

I checked wit the strips again later that day... mine remained the same... After i ate carbs and starch it went down to 0.5.

Hi there Tamarillo, do you mind if I hop on at the end here? Fantastic reading re the 10-day fast. These reportings on such are incredily helpful, imho.

I can't imagine that you will ever make the leap into the diabetes-zone, and this is marvellous news indeed.

Btw, What do you mean about NZ being notoriously conservative? Did you mean on medications? (Or?) I have done a lot of reading on NZ's diabetes meds position, and it isn't what I would call notoriously conservative - but always interested in your POV....

Ah ok! Big ty for explaining @Tamarillo. It's all very interesting, for sure.

I don't know anything about weight loss meds outside of the specifically for T2D ones, and what I have seen advertised on the tele over the years, and back then - the jokes! In the workplace regarding mishaps in the excretion department. But they have come a long way since?

My feelings on the topic is - nothing beats dealing with weight than via food and drink. (Like - nothing beats cardio vascular disease than physical activity/exercise.) In that - T2D is a metabolic disease. Then again, I have taken metformin recently, and was surprised at the appetite suppressant aspect of it, helped by the awful nausea, which I do not want to keep living with. But. And - So - keeping an open mind!

I know the pharmaceutical companies are desperate to find a pill for it (weight loss). Big big big bucks. But I see a lot of disappointment in that, the way there has been outside of surgery with cardiovascular disease. We have not been able to beat our animal-ness. (And why would we? We can't even beat the horrible war thing!) I'm am indeed a - better to embrace it kind of person. We're animals. We need nutritious food, (and I am a ' definitely including other animals eater!) not frankenfood, ditto drinks. We won't survive trying to beat it from the factory level. So methinks, at any rate.

Hi there @Tamarillo. Well, the genetic component argument is patently absurd, as I am sure you know. I have heard that *beep beep plenty of times. And on the news. If it was 'genetic', how come this became an issue only when along came Ancel beeping Keys and sugar in excess and frankenfoods and drinkx, and food deserts and.... well you know the story. I sure know the story as it's my story. Epigenetic is a nice way of saying - our human bodies which we all have, and the absolutey horrific food and drink environment that is par for the course these days. But is Kellogs going to fund that idea? Beep no.

Tiny waists were the rule, not the exception, now it's the other way around. Too too sad, tragic.

And surgery? That's a big complex subject and I have a lot to say on that, re Aotearoa/NZ.

Re diet and much less so (imho)- physical exercise. Oh yes. And absolutely re the cost effectiveness of LCHF/paleo/keto and fasting/intermittent fasting. Being free and all. As you know too I am sure - therein lies the rub in our economies.

Eating good meat is sure costing me a bomb or two these days for sure. Ditto kaimoana and fish. We are not alone in the world regarding this, as you know too for sure too.

I've cut down hugely on fun drinks, as in low-carb alcoholic beverages, which has helped my pocket book at least, and, my waist size (talking about waist sizes, sigh). But has it cut down on fun? Oh yes.

AloeSvea said:

Hi there @Tamarillo. Well, the genetic component argument is patently absurd, as I am sure you know. I have heard that *beep beep plenty of times. And on the news. If it was 'genetic', how come this became an issue only when along came Ancel beeping Keys and sugar in excess and frankenfoods and drinkx, and food deserts and.... well you know the story. I sure know the story as it's my story. Epigenetic is a nice way of saying - our human bodies which we all have, and the absolutey horrific food and drink environment that is par for the course these days. But is Kellogs going to fund that idea? Beep no.

Tiny waists were the rule, not the exception, now it's the other way around. Too too sad, tragic.

And surgery? That's a big complex subject and I have a lot to say on that, re Aotearoa/NZ.

Re diet and much less so (imho)- physical exercise. Oh yes. And absolutely re the cost effectiveness of LCHF/paleo/keto and fasting/intermittent fasting. Being free and all. As you know too I am sure - therein lies the rub in our economies.

Eating good meat is sure costing me a bomb or two these days for sure. Ditto kaimoana and fish. We are not alone in the world regarding this, as you know too for sure too.

I've cut down hugely on fun drinks, as in low-carb alcoholic beverages, which has helped my pocket book at least, and, my waist size (talking about waist sizes, sigh). But has it cut down on fun? Oh yes.

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my view is the genetic element is a trigger rather than a bullet. A susceptibility more than a guarantee In light of the appalling modern food environment

I agree - the saying is: "genetics loads the gun and environment pulls the trigger" But of course how are we to know until we hear the shot? Those with different genes in the same environment don't become ill - but of course their own genes bring other health problems, ones which we may never experience.

Outlier said:

I agree - the saying is: "genetics loads the gun and environment pulls the trigger"

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ah I knew it was something like that. Between it being very late and brain fog I’m going to ignore my mangling of the phrase

I thought your comment was perfectly sound, not mangled at all.

O K - the problem with talking about genetics coming first like that is, as a trigger, that many folks - not you guys, but folks watching the news say, is that they believe the genetics is a genetic cluster that is a T2D cluster, rather than, say - a body type, but a gene or genes we have lurking n there which has the possibility to give someone, specifically T2D. A T2D gene or genes. I have read folks on one of the American sites say this often.

Obviously, T2D being epigenetic, and as we all know - hugely about one's fat storage pathway, I talk about body types, rather than a genetic disposition per se.

Of course - it ends up being the same thing!

But not, I would argue, in the general public's minds eye, often. Language is super important, especially when talking about metabolic diseases (well, I guess I would think so wouldnt I?!) And a metabolic disease that is talked about as being at the beginning of a tidal wave (as it is in Aotearoa/New Zealand). (I also think this, I guess, as I have been involved in education, and I have family members who do not know about really, let alone understand what DNA is etc. My family is not alone!)

An enormously helpful piece of info when discussing this with folks who are wanting to understand where T2D comes from, imho, is that T2D is springing up in families who have not seen it before, at least - for the generations where spoken history is involved. This is my own situation. The trigger can be - putting way too much fat on your belly region for your metabolic system to deal with healthily, and blood glucose dysregulation sets in, and a cascade of insulin, lipids and blood glucose dysregulation over time if you are not lucky, or excess glucose and excess insulin has been going on too long.

Especially when children and young people are getting prediabetes and diabetes for the first time in known history. This is not a genetic situation - this is our environment. And as you guys know - specifically our food and drink environment (along with environmental changes and pollution - but mainly - the food and drink).

But of course you are right! Our gorgeous human bodies come first. Our gorgeous wonderful fully functioning glorious system with the underlying genetic blueprint that makes us what we are. And all our forebears what they were. Every single one of my earlier forebears for instance, was able to withstand a long boat ride with minimum nutrition to get to my country. All of them. The boats were different, reflecting the different regions - but it was still a mightly long boat ride to varying degrees, across vast stretches of ocean. Obviously they made it. Lean, and strong. Which is, after all, our human body prototype, if I can use that word.

If you look at it as a body type thing, which is how I do, it then explains all the racial/regional aspects to T2D, which is what Tamarillo and I were indirectly referring to in our country's major city, Auckland. This is nobody in this discussion, for again - obvious reasons! But news items have referred to particular races as having a genetic disposition to type two. This drives me nuts, as that is the end of the sentence. None of the kind of analysis as in above. And it is utterly utterly unhelpful from an education point of view, or to further good health amongst all populations. These are my thoughts on the subject at any rate (re news items, and education - both subjects I am super interested in).

Anyway, I hope you forgive me my rave. It's Sunday morning, my coffee has kicked in, and the sun is out, and I find this topic very engaging

Tamarillo said:

I completed a ten day fast. *Phew*.
I was aiming for five days but I felt so well on days four and five I just kept going...and assessed things day by day.

I felt fatigued on day 3 which is typical for me with the liver emtying it's glycogen stores and ketones needing to come more robustly to the party.
I hit another patch of fatigue on days 7 and 8. Then days 9 and 10 I've felt like fuel is getting to the cells again. I was able to get quite a lot done on the garden, cook for my family and go for a walk on the beach. Looking at my numbers, on days 9 and 10 my ketones went higher than the glucose number, putting me into therapeutic ketosis. IE: GKI of less than 1.

I had one cup of black coffee in the morning each day and until day 6 I added a couple of teaspoons of C8 mct oil to my coffee.
There was no good reason for the mct oil, I just had the last of a bottle to use up.
Other than that, I drank water, electrolytes and a teaspoon of apple cider vinegar here and there (1 or 2 x per day) in a glass of sparkling water. As well as electrolytes I took a B complex, extra thiamine and extra magnesium. I crunched up a bit of flaky sea salt any time I felt the need. It's amazing how much better you feel when you need salt and you get it!

I felt hungry between mid-afternoon and around 7pm the first few days and transiently once or twice at other times, but most of the time I wasn't physically conscious of not having eaten.
I did find myself watching a LOT of cooking videos in the evenings while I sipped my 'apple cider bubbly'.

I tested blood glucose and ketones each morning around 6.30 am.

October 31st Glucose 4.5, Ketones 0.8 *Started fast at midday
November 1st Glucose 4.6, Ketones 0.9
November 2nd Glucose 3.8, Ketones 1.1
November 3rd Glucose 4.2, Ketones 0.9
November 4th Glucose 4.4, Ketones 1.8
November 5th Glucose 4.0, Ketones 1.8
November 6th Glucose 4.1, Ketones 2.3
November 7th Glucose 3.8, Ketones 3.4
November 8th Glucose 3.5, Ketones 3.8
November 9th Glucose 3.4, Ketones 4.2
November 10th Glucose 3.4, Ketones 4.3 *Ended fast at midday. Had some beef bone broth and later matcha tea. Then apple cider bubbly in the evening because it seems I've formed a habit....er I mean I've grown fond of it.

I'd hoped to get to the 'therapeutic ketosis' point sooner than day 9, but two days in that zone is better than none and if I play my cards right I might be able to remain there another day or two while re-feeding.

Made some celeriac soup with bone broth for tomorrow and have things like avocado and yogurt on standby.
Will post the next few days numbers here while I get back up to speed with eating and digestion.

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Hi Tamarillo,

So my blood glucose each morning is around 7.3mmol.

I'm on a low calorie diet, week 3, 14lbs lost. Using Keediet 800 calories meal replacement shakes.

Would you advise fasting to help lower the fasted Blood glucose readings?

Tamarillo said:

Sorry I ought to have mentioned in my original post. I was trying a longer fast to see if a low GKI might help with neuro and autoimmune issues....that's specifically why I was hoping to attain a ratio of less than 1.
I am also still quite insulin resistant so with what I originally planned to be a 5 day fast I was expecting it might have some impact in that area.

Yes I've been an intermittent faster quite a while. Previously I'd only done a 5 day extended fast but I've done a number of 3 days. 10 is a bit drastic I admit , but not something I plan on doing often at all. I felt perfectly fine to cook most days, plus make school lunches and all the other fun stuff.

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Hi. Out of interest did fasting and ketosis help with any of the "neuro and autoimmune issues"? Also, why the 10 day fast (was there any science behind that?) Was that simply a case of needing to get ketone levels up (I looked at your posted numbers and see they only went above 4 on day 10)?

It is difficult to actually find people that are doing longer fasting for reasons other than weight loss. I have more questions

Well - it's also about the degree of weight loss, for a type two. I was normal weighted and wanted to see if I could find a personal fat threshold (one of the theories around going into remission) that would help with my blood glucose level, and persistent too high fasting blood glucose. So I experimented with all number of fasting and ways of eating, including low calorie for periods of time. One of my fasting experiments was indeed 10 days. I have since experimented with long periods of intermittent fasting as in a period of eating window. Alas, for me personally, my blood glucose regulation system seems to be too damaged to bring about healthier fasting blood glucose levels. But many do achieve remission via such short and sharp, or longer and sharper means to deplete the organs and fat cells of fat.