Hana's Mouse thread.

I got a look at the paper about the low carb mice and the seeming risk of low carbing
I don't think much of that work is relevant to diabetics using low carb for control. However, what I think makes it even less so is that they used BABY mice. Newly weaned and all boys. I know that human children have different dietary needs from adults. I expect baby mice are like that too. And that's after feeding a grain eating animal on a low carb diet.
Humans are not grain eaters. I'm now sure this work is irrelevant to adult diabetics using low carb as a means of controlling a metabolic error.

Re: Poor baby mice!

I love mice
I've often had pet ones. Nothing is as silky as a mouse's fur.
Hana

Re: Poor baby mice!

I wouldn't dissect when I was at Uni. I refused and some of my classmates were convinced I'd get thrown out. However, the professor said he respected my principles. I was prepared to sacrifice my degree. I was then allowed to do a different module with another class. Actually it was pithing frogs, which I absolutely refused to have anything to do with. I think those disgusting practices have been abolished.

More about those mice

I noticed when I read the paper about the low-carb mice, that they were a specific Mutant strain, so I looked them up
What I found casts even MORE doubt onto the relevance for this study to humans.
I discovered that normal rodents don't form atherosclrotic plaques, which wwwere this study's markers for risk. the ApoE mice were developed specifically to produce this abnormal phenoenon. So why is anyone surprised they did so on an abnormal diet for mice?
Hana

Letter to the Mousy scientist.

This is what I wrote. It's just how I feel about this


I am writing, because I think the recently published study on mice, which
the press has extrapolated to humans, is causing unnecessary distress among
T2 diabetics, who use a low carb diet to control their condition.
I assume that you followed a low carb diet yourself perfectly safely for a
lot longer than the 12 weeks of the mouse study. Did you have your own
status regarding atherosclerotic plaques checked too?( obviously not post
mortem!)
You took ApoE mice, which are mutants designed for the purpose of producing
plaques and fed them a totally non-mouse diet and seemingly, you were
surprised that it didn't do them any good and they formed plaques as they
are designed to do. You then comment that you have stopped your low carb way
of eating, because( you imply) you are afraid of the risks.
You are NOT a mouse,(or are you?,, apologies for rudeness!) you do not have
rodent physiology and nutritional needs.
There are several well designed studies on the effects of low carb diets in
humans with T2 diabetes. the Swedish study was followed over 44 months. this
has shown in humans with defective glucose metabolism, that low carb diets
are beneficial.
I'm sure you were simply joining the anti Atkins movement. However, has
anyone ever PROVEN that the Atkins diet is dangerous? there are millions of
people worldwide who have benefited and are still benefiting from a reduced
carb way of eating and I've only ever found 1(ONE) VERY FLAWED study, which
suggested that increased carbs might help in diabetes. At least that's what
the writer said, although the raw data doesn't quite support it.
It wouldn't have hurt if you had thought of what the press would do with
the material you published and how it would impinge on diabetics, who have
other more immediate risks to contend with.
Hana Rous

Well done Dragon. I like your getting the strips issue in too.
Hope they publish
Hana

This particular study shows how animal studies can be a waste. First you breed mice whose physiology is abnormal. then you use that very abnormality to produce "surprising" results
Hana
I do think that some animal research is essentila though.

I wouldn't have minded dissecting a human cadaver, even if I knew his name. After all, he left his body for that purpose when he didn't need it any more.
Little mice and worse still intelligent larger creaures are tormented without their consent. Pithing frogs is disgusting andunconscienable( sp?). I sincerely hope it's not allowed any more. And they used wild caught creatures.
There's a big difference between dissecting a body GIVEN by its former owner for the education of doctors, and tormenting little creatures for the very dubious edification of students who will never use the knowledge.
The biggest distress I've ever seen in a child was the result of a demonstration that used to be done in biology, where fertile eggs were incubated and one or two opened at intervals for 11 year olds to see the developing embryos.
I had to drive home the little girl who realised that the nearly formed chick's heart would soon stop beating. I refused to teach that topic again.
What would children learn from that lesson?
Hana

The insulin discoveries in Toronto certainly made good use of the lives of those dogs,, as did the pigs in the South African heart transplant research but the world has moved on since 1922. For much research, "in vitro" tells us as much as "in vivo". I knew about the greyhounds too and think that it's pretty mean of the owners to exploit these gentle creatures twice.
However, I still can't think what the low carb mice study has taught anyone about human health.
Hana