Ideas to lower fasted BG levels

[DM123@]

Hi folks.

Am currently on a low carb KeeDiet meal replacement diet with a low carb evening meal, so about 8_900 calories a day I think. Have lost 1st 3lbs since starting (and being diagnosed)

My morning fasted BG levels always around 7.3. I want to get these down.

Starting to read Dr Fung and his fasting book and keen to hear if anyone has used fasting to bring their "base" BG levels down? @bulkbiker thoughts?

 

[Pipp]

Are you counting the carbs in your diet products and meals, @DM123@ ?
Just as, or possibly more important than calories.
The fasting levels are generally the last to come under control, with reduced carbs, it should be achievable.
Jason Fung methods I have used, and currently I am following low carb Intermittent Fast methods, after having some weight regain, and higher fasting levels after being ill. With IF I eat only between 1:30pm (sometimes later) and 7:30 pm. It is giving better fasting results.

 

[DM123@]

Are you counting the carbs in your diet products and meals, @DM123@ ?
Just as, or possibly more important than calories.
The fasting levels are generally the last to come under control, with reduced carbs, it should be achievable.
Jason Fung methods I have used, and currently I am following low carb Intermittent Fast methods, after having some weight regain, and higher fasting levels after being ill. With IF I eat only between 1:30pm (sometimes later) and 7:30 pm. It is giving better fasting results.

Hi Pipp.

The meal replacements are ment to be keto friendly, 125 cal per shake @ 32.5g per shake. That's around about 10g of carbs per shake. So x5 a day and some "above ground" natural carbs in a salad to bring to around 8 to 900 cals per day.

 

[Pipp]

Hi Pipp.

The meal replacements are ment to be keto friendly, 125 cal per shake @ 32.5g per shake. That's around about 10g of carbs per shake. So x5 a day and some "above ground" natural carbs in a salad to bring to around 8 to 900 cals per day.

View attachment 57616

Ok, so you have 5 meal replacement drinks a day, and are you mixing them with water or skimmed milk? If it is skimmed milk you will see from that chart you are doubling the amount of carb intake.
Although many of our members would point out the flaws in the Newcastle diet methods, it can be a quick start to weight loss, and better diabetes control, but to be truly ketogenic it needs to be less carby. You can measure ketones by using
ketostix

How to Use Keto Strips to Measure Ketosis

A common goal of people on the keto diet is to achieve ketosis, a natural state in which your body burns fat for fuel. This article explains how to use keto strips to measure ketosis.

www.healthline.com

if you are in ketosis you will speed up weightloss, and better control of blood glucose.
I always emphasise that a very low calorie diet, needs careful monitoring by HCPs and should not be undertaken if you are on medication that could cause hypos. Likewise very low carb diets.
From your posting it appears you could be confused as to the difference betwen carbs and calories. Forgive me if I am mistaken in this. Perhaps this book would be of use? It can be purchased elsewhere, not just from this site.

The Carbs & Cals book is an easy-to-use, highly effective resource for diabetes management, weight loss, portion control and healthy eating.

The Carbs & Cals book is an easy-to-use, highly effective resource for diabetes management, weight loss, portion control and healthy eating.

www.diabetes.co.uk

Of course, anyone completing the 12 week very low calorie diet needs a follow on plan so they they do not regain the weight lost and the diabetic blood glucose by returning to their pre VLCD way of eating. Have you considered how you will proceed?.

 

[Tamarillo]

Some people have found having apple cider vinegar (in water) in the evening lowers their morning fasted blood glucose.
I haven't read Dr Fung's article on vinegar but I've seen youtube videos from various sources describing how the acetic acid signals via the stomach for glucose to be directed to the muscles. It could make sense to use your muscles in the evening too, to burn any extra glucose off. A ten minute walk or other activity could work. It doesn't have to be strenuous.

Another strategy might be to extend your overnight fasting window to 16 hours (or increase it gradually in steps) making sure you finish your last meal or snack mid afternoon.
I would not be able to stay in ketosis using those shakes myself. The sugars - fibre ratio is too high for me, but I am reasonably sensitive to carbohydrates.

ETA: I checked, and sugars (from lactose presumably) in this product are very close to Optifast which I think is what was used in the Newcastle diet. So obviously that works for a lot of people.
I find lactose and dairy throws me off a bit. If you're losing weight and feeling well then something is working!

 

[DM123@]

Some people have found having apple cider vinegar (in water) in the evening lowers their morning fasted blood glucose.
I haven't read Dr Fung's article on vinegar but I've seen youtube videos from various sources describing how the acetic acid signals via the stomach for glucose to be directed to the muscles. It could make sense to use your muscles in the evening too, to burn any extra glucose off. A ten minute walk or other activity could work. It doesn't have to be strenuous.

Another strategy might be to extend your overnight fasting window to 16 hours (or increase it gradually in steps) making sure you finish your last meal or snack mid afternoon.
I would not be able to stay in ketosis using those shakes myself. The sugars - fibre ratio is too high for me, but I am reasonably sensitive to carbohydrates.

ETA: I checked, and sugars (from lactose presumably) in this product are very close to Optifast which I think is what was used in the Newcastle diet. So obviously that works for a lot of people.
I find lactose and dairy throws me off a bit. If you're losing weight and feeling well then something is working!

Hi, thanks for the advice Tamarillo. I'm basically fasting from 21:00 to 12:00 the next day anyhow, then having a few shakes.

I'm thinking muck like blood glucose, I need to eat to a meter? I've sticks ordered but am thinking if fasting is going to be a way of life going forward, why not invest in a keto meter. Would you have any.you recommended?

PS I do have Apple cider with a dash of water every morning but will have a shot in the evening as well now, thanks.

 

[DM123@]

Ok, so you have 5 meal replacement drinks a day, and are you mixing them with water or skimmed milk? If it is skimmed milk you will see from that chart you are doubling the amount of carb intake.
Although many of our members would point out the flaws in the Newcastle diet methods, it can be a quick start to weight loss, and better diabetes control, but to be truly ketogenic it needs to be less carby. You can measure ketones by using
ketostix

How to Use Keto Strips to Measure Ketosis

A common goal of people on the keto diet is to achieve ketosis, a natural state in which your body burns fat for fuel. This article explains how to use keto strips to measure ketosis.

www.healthline.com

if you are in ketosis you will speed up weightloss, and better control of blood glucose.
I always emphasise that a very low calorie diet, needs careful monitoring by HCPs and should not be undertaken if you are on medication that could cause hypos. Likewise very low carb diets.
From your posting it appears you could be confused as to the difference betwen carbs and calories. Forgive me if I am mistaken in this. Perhaps this book would be of use? It can be purchased elsewhere, not just from this site.

The Carbs & Cals book is an easy-to-use, highly effective resource for diabetes management, weight loss, portion control and healthy eating.

The Carbs & Cals book is an easy-to-use, highly effective resource for diabetes management, weight loss, portion control and healthy eating.

www.diabetes.co.uk

Of course, anyone completing the 12 week very low calorie diet needs a follow on plan so they they do not regain the weight lost and the diabetic blood glucose by returning to their pre VLCD way of eating. Have you considered how you will proceed?.

Hi Pipp, thanks for the response. I'm comfortable enough with macros and calories.

Regarding plans after the very low cal diet I intend to slowly transition over to a low carb high fat diet using intermittent fasting to help.

What approach do you use?

 

[Tamarillo]

Hi, thanks for the advice Tamarillo. I'm basically fasting from 21:00 to 12:00 the next day anyhow, then having a few shakes.

I'm thinking muck like blood glucose, I need to eat to a meter? I've sticks ordered but am thinking if fasting is going to be a way of life going forward, why not invest in a keto meter. Would you have any.you recommended?

PS I do have Apple cider with a dash of water every morning but will have a shot in the evening as well now, thanks.

Yes, a dual meter can be helpful for fasting. I use a Freestyle Optium Neo from Abbot.
When glucose levels dip low with fasting (or carbohydrate restriction) it's reassuring to see the ketone level rise and know your body is happy burning fat.
You will know this anyway based on how you feel, so a meter isn't exactly a necessity...more a "nice to have".
The meters themselves aren't too expensive but do check on the price of the ketone testing strips designed for any meter you're considering because the (Ketone) strips are not inexpensive.
I think it's a solid plan going forward to look at incorporating some intermittent fasting!
Hope that helps..

 

[DM123@]

Yes, a dual meter can be helpful for fasting. I use a Freestyle Optium Neo from Abbot.
When glucose levels dip low with fasting (or carbohydrate restriction) it's reassuring to see the ketone level rise and know your body is happy burning fat.
You will know this anyway based on how you feel, so a meter isn't exactly a necessity...more a "nice to have".
The meters themselves aren't too expensive but do check on the price of the ketone testing strips designed for any meter you're considering because the (Ketone) strips are not inexpensive.
I think it's a solid plan going forward to look at incorporating some intermittent fasting!
Hope that helps..

So seem to be always in keto mode, testing strips vary from light to dark but always showing ketones, on the shakes and some low carb food and that seems to be keeping me in the ketonic energy state.

 

[Robbity]

I wondered why my ketone levels were always so very low when I tested them with "wee" strips- until I discovered that It's actually the waste ketones in our urine that's being checked, and high levels initially indicate you're producing ketones but not specifically using them. Later it's generally a case of the lower (i.e. less waste) the better. but it can take time to adapt to using them. Checking blood with a meter will indicate what ketones you've got available to use as fuel.

 

[bulkbiker]

Hi folks.

Am currently on a low carb KeeDiet meal replacement diet with a low carb evening meal, so about 8_900 calories a day I think. Have lost 1st 3lbs since starting (and being diagnosed)

My morning fasted BG levels always around 7.3. I want to get these down.

Starting to read Dr Fung and his fasting book and keen to hear if anyone has used fasting to bring their "base" BG levels down? @bulkbiker thoughts?

I fast every day until mid afternoon. But then eat 2 (what most would say are large) meals between about 3.30 and 8.00
Personally I wouldn't use meal replacement shakes at all or limit food intake. Just eat to satiety and save what's left from the main meal for the lighter meal the following day. My fridge usually contains cold meat of some variety.
I'm very much of the opinion that crash diets simply don't work for long term effective weight loss so would never recommend them whatever Profs Taylor and Lean may posit.

And sorry for delay in replying but I hadn't seen your tag..

 

[bulkbiker]

Hi, thanks for the advice Tamarillo. I'm basically fasting from 21:00 to 12:00 the next day anyhow, then having a few shakes.

I'm thinking muck like blood glucose, I need to eat to a meter? I've sticks ordered but am thinking if fasting is going to be a way of life going forward, why not invest in a keto meter. Would you have any.you recommended?

PS I do have Apple cider with a dash of water every morning but will have a shot in the evening as well now, thanks.

Cheapest to run ketone meter I have found in my extensive searches is this one

FREE KETONE Meter when you buy 50 On Call Blood Ketone Strips ( 2 x 25 test strips)

FREE GK dual meter when you purchase 50 blood ketone test strips. For testing blood ketones in whole blood using the On Call GK Dual blood glucose and ketone meter CE0123 accuracy for self and professional ketone testing Mission On Call blood ketone test strips are an easy and accurate way...

www.valuemed.co.uk

The glucose strips are expensive though so I still use my Tee2 meter for BG monitoring.

 

[bulkbiker]

My morning fasted BG levels always around 7.3. I want to get these down.

In my case these were the last reading to come down to normal.. took about 6 months of ultra low carb/ketogenic eating .
Hope that helps

 

[Pipp]

Hi Pipp, thanks for the response. I'm comfortable enough with macros and calories.

Regarding plans after the very low cal diet I intend to slowly transition over to a low carb high fat diet using intermittent fasting to help.

What approach do you use?

Sorry for late reply. @DM123@
It took me a while to get to low carb following the very low calorie diet, which I undertook eleven years ago. Basically because I was still under the spell of the recommended NHS diet Of low fat , fruit and carbs with every meal.

I have followed low carb for several years, with spells of 24 -36 hour fasting. Have been, for over a year, having 2 meals a day, with a late breakfast. Intermittent fasting, keeping carbs to approx 60 gr a day.
For the past six weeks have followed a more strict regime of IF eating first meal at 2pm, and last food by 7pm. I don’t feel hungry. I chose to do this more strict IF, because I have struggled one again with the morning fasting levels, which is always for me the most difficult to control, as it is for many. Also some weight gain.
I do have confounding variables of other health conditions, and have needed steroid meds recently, which always make blood glucose levels erratic for a while.

 

[Outlier]

Although I am now in pre-diabetic readings per HB1AC, my fasting BG is still the highest reading of the day, and any kind of stress or illness sends it way up. We are all different, and that seems to be my version, so I don't worry too much about it now.

 

[DM123@]

In my case these were the last reading to come down to normal.. took about 6 months of ultra low carb/ketogenic eating .
Hope that helps

Thanks Biker, I'm using shakes for lunch and having a low carb soup/salad/meat veg combo for tea, I'm determined to do a vlcd to get the initial Newcastle diet percentage weight loss advised in the trials.

Ketone meter ordered so looking forward to understanding fasting a little more, am reading Dr Fungs book on fasting but am interested in the concept of fat adaptation vrs ketosis.

My understanding is you enter ketosis after a short spell of carb restriction and stored glucose is used up, but it takes around 4 weeks of being in the ketosis state for the body to "switch over" to being fully used to using body fat and dietary fat adopted.

Have I understood this correctly?

The book also states that once the body is fat adopted, you can eat carbs and have a faster spike to normal blood glucose level?

 

[DM123@]

I wondered why my ketone levels were always so very low when I tested them with "wee" strips- until I discovered that It's actually the waste ketones in our urine that's being checked, and high levels initially indicate you're producing ketones but not specifically using them. Later it's generally a case of the lower (i.e. less waste) the better. but it can take time to adapt to using them. Checking blood with a meter will indicate what ketones you've got available to use as fuel.

Hi Robbity,

I'm guessing your from Northern Ireland because the prefix of using "wee" is very common here lol.

So, the wee sticks are telling me I'm producing ketones but that doesn't mean that my body is adopted to being fuelled by them? Is this what is ment by fat adaptation in Dr Fungs books?

He states around about the 4 week mark of a low carb keto diet for adaptation to take place.

So what's fuelling the body up to the 4 week adaptation stage if your only eating low carb?

#confused....

 

[Lisa5]

where do you get the shakes from please? and does it give you a lot of wind.

 

[DM123@]

where do you get the shakes from please? and does it give you a lot of wind.

Hi Lisa,

If you Google Newcastle university recommended shakes and click on the official booklet it will give you the recommended shakes, I've copied it below for ease, I use the keediet shakes and buy directly from their website:

DIETARY REPLACEMENT PRODUCTS
The shakes/soups chosen should ideally:
• Be individually packaged (sachets not a tub)
• Contain between 180 and 220kcal per meal
The list below shows some products which, along with the vegetables,
will meet the daily nutritional requirements of most people. If choosing
an alternative to those suggested below, check the label or ask your
healthcare team for advice.
3 products per day plus veg:
• Exante diet soups/shakes (make up with water)
• Optifast soups/shakes (UK prescription, make up with water)
• ASDA Great Shape (make up with semi-skimmed milk)
• TESCO Ultraslim (make up with semi skimmed milk)
• Keediet shakes/soups (make up with unsweetened soy milk)
4 products per day plus veg:
• Slim and Save soups/shakes (make up with water)
• Keediet shakes/soups (made up with water)

 

[DM123@]

where do you get the shakes from please? and does it give you a lot of wind.

And no to the wind question.

I'll be honest, I haven't felt so good with regard digestion in a very long time, no wind, IBS type symptoms, urgent need for the toilet after eating fat etc that I had pre use of the shakes and low carb small meals