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Is this hypo territory?

P

PickledPepper

Well-Known Member
Messages
238
This morning I had my lowest ever reading at fasting (3.9).

I restarted Met over a week ago and am on 1 x 500 mg, taken with main evening meal.


I did this to give me more 'wiggle room' for eating nice stuff over xmas.


My question is:

Is 3.9 on fasting dangerously low or getting close?
 
3.9 mmol/l at any time is Hypo territory. Anything below 4 mmol/l is considered to be hypoglycaemia. Not recommended for anybody.

If you drive with levels that low you would also possibly be a danger to yourself and other road users, pedestrians. It can impair your judgement etc. I know mine is when at those sort of levels, co-ordination as well.

If you want some 'wiggle room' at Xmas.....just monitor your food intake and post meal readings like most of us do.
 
I'd say that was getting dangerously low for a fasting reading, prob with wiggle room is that if you give yourself too much room then you can find yourself in hypo-land, it is hard to get it right. If you want some wiggle room for xmas could you build in some exercise eg a brisk half hour walk after a meal, would mean you can eat a bit more at the meal.
 
PickledPepper said:
My question is:

Is 3.9 on fasting dangerously low or getting close?
Click to expand...

It is PP and you would do well to avoid such levels. Hypoglycemia is said to begin at 4 and below and given that bg meters can be +/-10 in their readings it may well be that you were a little lower than 3.9, so perhaps a small 10g snack before bed may be all it takes to keep your levels safe, try testing your bg at 3am for a morning or two and act accordingly.

Nigel
 
Thanks for the advice guys. I've not been driving or doing anything potentially dangerous so it's okay.

I also notice I haven't had any noticeable effects as of yet. When I started low carbing I had 'false hypos' at the mid 5s and was doing all manner of silly things....

Seem a bit more together now.

Strange thing is that I had the most tiny piece of my flat mate's apple pie last night after a piece of roast chicken and some chana humus. So I thought I was pushing the boat a bit!
 
Hi pickle!! Now I'm gonna be controversial now and upset some people here. My blood sugars are very often between 2.9 and 3.6. I can function perfectly well at this level. I usu hit 2.3 before getting hypo symptoms. I told my diabetes specialist and he said it's fine.....as long as I DO get hypo symptoms. I never feel ill and eat well. But as everyone here says, what works for 1 will not work for others. It's how YOU feel. My dad has T2 and he's happy if his blood is 7. So really the thing is to go by your instincts. If you feel OK carry on regardless. If you feel 'off' test your blood sugar levels and adjust and act accordingly.
 
Sue32.
I see according to your profile you like driving.......

I hope you NEVER drive when your levels are that low ? Firmly in hypo territory however you may feel. Totally contrary to the DVLA guidelines. Contrary to the main bulk of medical opinion. Totally contrary to Road Traffic Law.

Just a thought......
 
No, I actually very rarely drive these days Ken, but if I feel OK, what real harm am I doing to myself? If I really am harming my body then I'm prepared to change, never say never!! But I've worked so **** hard to get my bloods down from 16+ and I'm sooooo pleased and proud of myself; I feel liked I've climbed Everest and I'm so afraid of my levels climbing too far. I've been able to stop taking insulin and now just take 2 Gliclazide 80mg a day. I've never felt better!!
 

Sue as your profile says you are a insulin user just be very careful at these levels, the reason why you don't experience hypo symptoms at normal levels is due to your body being use to being in a hypoglycemic state. It's not really a case of ''what works for 1'' these levels are extremely dangerous and can be life-threatening (google 'death in bed syndrome') and frankly your dsn needs a telling off to suggest that 2.9 is acceptable.

Nigel
 
Sue.
I am glad to hear that. What you and others do is a matter for themselves. You may not think you are doing any harm as it's just you........we take a bigger picture view and are concerned about what happens to others as well, not just an individual. Actions can have consequences which are unforeseen.

The trouble is when members post things like this it is seen by newly diagnosed and guests........

It is not the right information we should be showing to them. They will go from here thinking it is fine. It is NOT. It never will be.

That is why we always pick up on these things. We would be failing our members if we did not repeat this whenever it is raised and portrayed as OK as you did.

We will always post contrary to that.

Edit: Nigel, you are so right !
 
I've always been led by the mantra:
4 is the floor!
Which is what I tend to stick to. Although you might feel fine at 3.9, your levels can decline rather quickly! You certainly don't want to wake up to paramedics on Christmas Day :lol:

Like others have mentioned, you can still have a bit of leeway over Christmas as we all do, just keep an eye on your levels post mealtimes
 
It's a tad bit weird to be honest. Not very long ago my levels were never low enough, now they have occasionally become too low! (Well it was only the once mind you).

What had happened was that I just couldn't afford strips for a while and wasn't sure if I was over. Plus to be honest, I find that I take more risks with food when I can't test, nothing dramatic just larger portions and the occasional naughty treat. The latter because my flat mate leaves stuff out in the kitchen that are like a diabetic's temptation nightmare....lol (chip shop chips and apple pie for example). I've asked her not to, but she keeps forgetting and I can't be bothered to pursue the matter in fear of creating 'bad vibes'.

So, under these circs, I decided to cover myself by taking a single Met (which I thought wasn't too dramatic) incase I was going over and for the aforementioned 'xmas wiggle factor' reason.

I tried having a slice of toast before bed last night (Burgen soya linseed job) with butter, and got a 4.9 this morning. I'm tempted to wonder what they would have been if I never had the toast??

I'm wondering, what the heck has made my levels go from a propensity for being on the high side to what appears to be the opposite?

In a way it is a blessing as I can now eat stuff I couldn't before, so a couple of Roses chocs get scoffed and I'm having occasionally having much larger portions of basmati rice with meals.

Soon I will get brave enough to test potatoes.

I brought a shed load of test strips to get some serious info on my blood trends over the next few months. So that will be interesting.

I eat grapefruit regularly, drink green tea, have seriously cut down on booze, and generally try and eat healthy. Plus I have now cultivated a habit of eating bitter melon a couple times a week. I also took up some meditation. My biggest vice at the moment is butter and the occasional choc or 2 (or 3 sometimes). I also regularly drink a cup of coffee in the morning. Drink full fat milk.

What's going on? Why the change? I can't tell if it is good or bad?
 



I find it disgusting that the NHS won't prescribe test strips to all diabetics, with the result that the OP in this situation was running himself a little high to avoid going low and not being able to test. It's such a false economy that the NHS are doing this. OP is there any way you can tell your doc your concerns and see if they can increase your prescription?

Sorry but I can't answer your question as to why you are suddenly going a bit low, your diet sounds good, are you on the slow release or the normal metformin? I'm not sure how long metformin lasts for but I don't think you can really take it to counteract single instances of overeating as it takes a while to process through your system (I believe) but I hope someone with more knowledge on how metformin works can answer that one for you
 
I've looked at the 'death in bed' syndrome and, apparently, it occurs in T1 diabetics, and more often in juvenile diabetics. I always have a snack before bed and my fasting BM's are normally between 4 and 5.
 


But Sue do you find that if you hit 2.3 your hypo symptoms are a lot worse than if you caught it at 3.9, and it takes you a lot longer to recover? Just as I have lost my hypo warning symptoms recently, but find it hits me a lot harder if I don't realise til I am in the 2s, and unless I trough out at the hight 3s before I go any deeper I'm going to feel the hypo anyway so I may aswell know about it when it's at a more manageable level. When my sugars were not in control I would get phantom hypos at 5s/6s so it definitely changes depending on what levels you run at, but although I too can funciton ok in the high 3s I always worry that I'll suddenly drop to the low 2s without realising, then I am in danger land as I will start shaking/feeling sick/cognitive thought processes disrupted etc. If I am driving (I was once, now I check religiously before setting off) then I dread to think what may happen. It's just not worth the risk.
 
I'm controversial too
3.9 when not using insulin or other bg lowering/insulin stimulating meds isn't dangerous. PP said it was a fasting bg and he'd taken 500mg Metformin the night before. That medication isn't going to keep pushing the bg down, hence a normal breakfast is all that's needed.
"Four's the floor!" goes back many years. I recently met the lady who thought up the mantra and it was designed for children on insulin.
T2 on diet and low dose Metformin is a very different thing.
I take Ken's point about new diabetics
however, I personally think that too much concentration on that number 4 has diverted thinking away from numbers like 10 and up, which are MUCH MORE DANGEROUS.
Many non-diabetics, going to work without breakfast are probably driving with blood glucose levels well below 3.9.
in most cases Dawn Phenomenon will raise that bg in a short time, whether diabetic or not.
a number just below 4 is not dangerous unless medication keeps it falling.
Hana
 
Sorry Pickled pepper, I don't know what to suggest about what has changed with your control...I hop ethat you can sort it out a little, and know what is going on..becasue a waking Bg of 4.9 is great...so if you knew how to repeat it, that would be fab.

For me, I try not to get too hug up about the figures. Again, and this is different for different people, but for me, I am either not hypo, hypo and conscious or extremely raely, hypo and not aware of what is going on...but not in a coma if that make s sense. My control has improved a great deal, and I am hypo aware....except when I am asleep. I think that ths is due to the fact that I ama deep sleper though. This means that sometimes, I can wake up with a level of 3.8, feel awful and know I am hypo. I can also wake up with a level of say, 2.2, feel exactly teh same....but sometime, a figure of 3.0 will have me completely dolally...ie, my hubby has to feed me dextrose, and look after me while I gain some degree of awareness of my surroundings. For me at least, there is something other than teh number of the test monitor screen that influences teh effects that teh hypo has on my mental and physical sysmtoms. I have to say, that this really doesn't happen very often, but my point is, that the symptoms, don't always math the numbers....although I guess there isn end point somehwere..which I hope never to find! :shock:
 
Spoke to doctor (on phone) who simply said, stop taking Met. She is going to phone me tomorrow as she had a meeting.

One question I have for you guys regards the figures for a hypo. Now last night I went through that oft-cited study by Christiansen (2006) http://www.diabetes-symposium.org/index.php?source=&sourceid=0&menu=view&chart=39&id=322 on what normal blood sugars were.

According to that study they were between 3.1 and 8.9. Now given that, was my 3.9 figure really that bad?

Plus death in bed (as already mentioned) seems to be a type 1 phenomena, not type 2? (Even though I think I may have some form of type 1.5).

???
 
PP
That is all about levels in healthy non-diabetics..to give a base line for those of us that ARE Diabetic.

I don't think anybody has said that 3.9 is bad.....just that it is right on the edge of hypo territory
( 4 is the floor). Some of us get hypo symptoms at slightly higher levels. Hypo awareness.

If your level is that low frequently you would have to consider what happens to brain function. Low levels are known to impair cognitive ability. Definitely something to think about if you drive or operate machinery.

The figures given regarding hypo levels which Diabetic's should avoid are not made up, they are the mainstream medical opinion. Something all Diabetics should be aware of. There are those that think running at such low levels is something to be aimed for........their choice, just don't expect any praise for doing that. I have seen the results of people being hypo behind the wheel of vehicles. Seen the tragedies that have happened because somebody thought it was OK.......it isn't.

As for DIBS......yes it is a T1 issue, they too read and take note of what is said on these fora so the point is a valid one to make, for the benefit of any T1's reading. The thread is in the common area after all.
 
PickledPepper said:
Plus death in bed (as already mentioned) seems to be a type 1 phenomena, not type 2? (Even though I think I may have some form of type 1.5).???
Click to expand...

Just to make it quite clear PP, I was responding to Sue32 when I mention 'Death in Bed Syndrome' as her profile said that she was a type 2 using insulin. Both type 1's and type 2's who use insulin must be aware of the dangers of night-time hypo's when on insulin- hence why I mentioned the very rare cases of Death in Bed Syndrome.

Nigel
 
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