Is this normal . . . .?

ButtterflyLady · Oct 1, 2015

I think people do quantify what low carb means, to an extent. I've read posts several times saying very low carb is 20-30g a day, others do fine on 50-70g, while others aim for 100-150g. Based on my own experience, I do better on 150g than I do on 400g. Once I started LCHF I found it was easy to get down to 50g, which is where I will stay until my weight loss plateaus, then I will review things.

Enclave · Oct 1, 2015

CatLadyNZ said:
I think people do quantify what low carb means, to an extent. I've read posts several times saying very low carb is 20-30g a day, others do fine on 50-70g, while others aim for 100-150g. Based on my own experience, I do better on 150g than I do on 400g. Once I started LCHF I found it was easy to get down to 50g, which is where I will stay until my weight loss plateaus, then I will review things.

To be in the ketogenic diet range you do need to go quite low ... or you will be outside the ketogenic process for it to work as an effect weight loss tool ... I don't consider 20 to 30g a day to be very low .. but it has me in the ketogenic diet range ... yes my sugars are good at a higher level of carbs ..but i still have weight to loose ..like the original poster ...

This link can explain better than I can !

ButtterflyLady · Oct 1, 2015

Enclave said:
To be in the ketogenic diet range you do need to go quite low ... or you will be outside the ketogenic process for it to work as an effect weight loss tool ... I don't consider 20 to 30g a day to be very low .. but it has me in the ketogenic diet range ... yes my sugars are good at a higher level of carbs ..but i still have weight to loose ..like the original poster ...

Yeah, we should take bets on how long it will be before I'm on the forum asking about reducing my carbs to ketogenic, lol. For now I am ok about losing weight slowly on 50g a day.

Pinkorchid · Oct 1, 2015

tigerlily72 said:
I've recently been diagnosed and have made some big changes to my diet by reducing carbs and cutting out a lot of food i.e. no white bread, white rice, pasta, root veg, chips, curries, takeaways, cakes, biscuits, crisps etc. Instead, I am eating lots of fish (not breaded or battered), chicken fillets and pork fillets with fresh veggies. I am taking salad for my lunch at work and eating greek yoghurt instead of "normal" yoghurts or chocolate bars. If I have any bread it's wholemeal and most days I don't eat any bread or potatoes.

But why, am I feeling so fatigued and tired? I changed my diet about 3 weeks ago and my highest reading since then has been 9.6 but I feel totally drained at times with no energy.

I had a full blood test when I had my first fasting test and was tested for other health conditions i.e. thyroid, anaemia etc and they came back as normal.

Does it get better? Do I need medication?

I have my very first appointment with the Diabetic Nurse Specialist on 9 October

What you are eating sounds good but no one can tell you what level of carbs you should have that's different for everyone. It depends on lifestyle, how active you, if you need to loose weight and if you have any other medical conditions If you have gone very low carb very quickly that may be the reason for the way you feel. Try Bergen Linseed and Soya bread.. better than wholemeal.. and Lidl protein rolls are good to a lot here have both of these

TorqPenderloin · Oct 1, 2015

Robbity said:
That's possibly because the majority of low carbers here are type 2 diabetics, and for them a low carb diet can be anything from around 130 grams of carbs a day down to very low carb/ketogenic levels. How many or few carbs we eat usually depends on our glucose levels and/or whether we need to lost weight, and many of us don't have the "luxury" of a dose of insulin to help us control things, so we have to adjust our levels mainly by diet and medication or by diet alone, and our diet tends to be what does most of our control for us, therefore can vary considerably from individual to individual. There can be no "one size fits all" in our situation.

Robbity

I noticed you didn't mention exercise helping to control your levels. Was that intentional? It's a very important subject especially when discussing type 2 diabetics implementing a low carb plan.

I think you are missing my point and I certainly wasn't suggesting my type 1 diabetes is treated the same as type 2.

My point is that you can't blindly pick a number and expect to yield solid results. There are windows of carb levels that will yield the most successful results:
1.) A 25-40% reduction in carbs MAY help keep your glucose levels in check but it would require frequent exercise (something I think people significantly neglect on this forum). The idea is to manage your diabetes without cutting out major macronutrients and without energy levels suffering.
2.) An ultra-low carb diet is what most on here seem to preach. Again I stress, this requires your body to enter ketosis. For some reason that's rarely mentioned. If your body never reaches ketosis on a low carb diet you'll likely feel lethargic and lack energy. Some may never notice that lack of energy if they don't exercise. However, I firmly believe that exercise is a major aspect of type 2 (and type 1) management.

Enclave · Oct 1, 2015

CatLadyNZ said:
Yeah, we should take bets on how long it will be before I'm on the forum asking about reducing my carbs to ketogenic, lol. For now I am ok about losing weight slowly on 50g a day.

I was replying mainly for the original poster to clarify the position on the ketogenic way of eating to loose weight, sorry I was not intending to tell you in anyway to lower your carb intake, as you are happy with what your doing .... but your post I was giving the impression that the higher level of carbs will be good for the ketogenic diet ... sorry again for the misunderstanding ..

ButtterflyLady · Oct 1, 2015

TorqPenderloin said:
I noticed you didn't mention exercise helping to control your levels. Was that intentional? It's a very important subject especially when discussing type 2 diabetics implementing a low carb plan.

I think you are missing my point and I certainly wasn't suggesting my type 1 diabetes is treated the same as type 2.

My point is that you can't blindly pick a number and expect to yield solid results. There are windows of carb levels that will yield the most successful results:
1.) A 25-40% reduction in carbs MAY help keep your glucose levels in check but it would require frequent exercise (something I think people significantly neglect on this forum). The idea is to manage your diabetes without cutting out major macronutrients and without energy levels suffering.
2.) An ultra-low carb diet is what most on here seem to preach. Again I stress, this requires your body to enter ketosis. For some reason that's rarely mentioned. If your body never reaches ketosis on a low carb diet you'll likely feel lethargic and lack energy. Some may never notice that lack of energy if they don't exercise. However, I firmly believe that exercise is a major aspect of type 2 (and type 1) management.

I think everyone is different. I've had an HbA1c in the 30s for 18 months despite little exercise and some seriously off the wagon high carb eating, for example. Currently I'm on LCHF because I find it the easiest way to lose weight, which I need to do.

I disagree that most on here preach an ultra-low carb diet. For starters, hardly anyone "preaches"... we suggest, we inform, we share. I would say the ultra-low carbers are a minority. A very knowledgeable, enthusiastic minority.

Time and again, people report that adequate fat consumption avoids lethargy and lack of energy. As someone with fibromyalgia, let me tell you that you can feel lack of energy without exercising.

There are also a fair few people here whose ability to exercise is severely constrained by disability.

So yeah, everyone is different, and in my experience it pays to remember that things are often more nuanced than they first appear.

ButtterflyLady · Oct 1, 2015

Enclave said:
I was replying mainly for the original poster to clarify the position on the ketogenic way of eating to loose weight, sorry I was not intending to tell you in anyway to lower your carb intake, as you are happy with what your doing .... but your post I was giving the impression that the higher level of carbs will be good for the ketogenic diet ... sorry again for the misunderstanding ..

No worries

Robbity · Oct 1, 2015

@CatLadyNZ: I rather think we may be "preaching" to deaf ears...
Robbity

Brunneria · Oct 1, 2015

TorqPenderloin said:
I noticed you didn't mention exercise helping to control your levels. Was that intentional? It's a very important subject especially when discussing type 2 diabetics implementing a low carb plan

Why would anyone bring up exercise in this thread, when the OP specifically raised questions about starting low carbing? Let them get over their 'carb flu' before hitting them with exercise programmes.

Exercise advice and enthusiastic support for activity is all over this forum It even has its own board, and numerous threads, but since T2 management is approx 80% diet, and the remaining 20% exercise and drugs, that is a long way down the list for a newbie low carber.

Brunneria · Oct 1, 2015

@tigerlily72
you may find this thread interesting too - always good to know that you aren't alone, eh?

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/why-does-low-carb-make-me-feel-so-ill.85078/#post-958534

TorqPenderloin · Oct 1, 2015

Brunneria said:
Why would anyone bring up exercise in this thread, when the OP specifically raised questions about starting low carbing? Let them get over their 'carb flu' before hitting them with exercise programmes.
Exercise advice and enthusiastic support for activity is all over this forum It even has its own board, and numerous threads, but since T2 management is approx 80% diet, and the remaining 20% exercise and drugs, that is a long way down the list for a newbie low carber.

I’ll hold off on my response for now and take the opportunity to learn from you.

Perhaps you can share with us how people get over their carb flu?

As follow-up questions:

What should people do if their carb flu lasts several weeks? After all, her initial question was about if it was normal to feel tired and fatigued three weeks into her diet.
Finally, can you explain, on a basic scientific level, what the “Carb Flu” actually is?

I look forward to the learning opportunity.

Brunneria · Oct 1, 2015

TorqPenderloin said:
I’ll hold off on my response for now and take the opportunity to learn from you.

Perhaps you can share with us how people get over their carb flu?

As follow-up questions:

What should people do if their carb flu lasts several weeks? After all, her initial question was about if it was normal to feel tired and fatigued three weeks into her diet.
Finally, can you explain, on a basic scientific level, what the “Carb Flu” actually is?

I look forward to the learning opportunity.

Keep reading the forum.
Your queries are answered all over the place.

Actually, I think some of your questions have been covered in a couple of threads already today, some of them by me, some by others.
This should start you off:
Why does low-carb make me feel so ill?

If you really want to learn about low carbing, the best source i have ever seen is the Voleck and Phinney book mentioned in my signature. Answers everything. With excellent references and explanations.

I won't answer your questions here, because something tells me that you only asked the questions to try pick an argument. For the same reason, i won't respond to antagonistic posts in other threads, either.

Edited to improve the link

Lamont D · Oct 1, 2015

TorqPenderloin said:
I noticed you didn't mention exercise helping to control your levels. Was that intentional? It's a very important subject especially when discussing type 2 diabetics implementing a low carb plan.

I think you are missing my point and I certainly wasn't suggesting my type 1 diabetes is treated the same as type 2.

My point is that you can't blindly pick a number and expect to yield solid results. There are windows of carb levels that will yield the most successful results:
1.) A 25-40% reduction in carbs MAY help keep your glucose levels in check but it would require frequent exercise (something I think people significantly neglect on this forum). The idea is to manage your diabetes without cutting out major macronutrients and without energy levels suffering.
2.) An ultra-low carb diet is what most on here seem to preach. Again I stress, this requires your body to enter ketosis. For some reason that's rarely mentioned. If your body never reaches ketosis on a low carb diet you'll likely feel lethargic and lack energy. Some may never notice that lack of energy if they don't exercise. However, I firmly believe that exercise is a major aspect of type 2 (and type 1) management.

I am a preacher, adviser, helper and low carb enthusiast!
I've been ketogenic, for quite a while now, and low carb works, especially for me, because of my condition, I have to low carb. It is my lifestyle and my saviour!
I won't answer your queries, as Brun has said they have been answered in many threads.

However, T2s can and do eat reasonable amounts of carbs, because they have tried, tested and are happily controlling their condition.
I will answer questions on exercise, because other than walking I don't necessarily need more, though , I walk the dog twice a day!

TorqPenderloin · Oct 1, 2015

I'm not sure why, but there seems to be a misunderstanding that I'm against a LCHF diet. That is simply not the case. In fact, I've tried several types of low carb diets in the past and had phenomenal results.

What I'm trying to explain is that a "carb flu" could technically last forever if you maintained a severe carb depletion, but not enough to enter into ketosis.

I'll use round numbers in hopes of making my point clearer. It needs to be understood that I'm promoting the same thing as many of you just in a different way.

Let's say 100g of carbs is my maintenance. However, I want to start a LCHF diet to keep my type 2 under control.
Let's also say that at <20g of carbs my body enters ketosis- the point at which my body resorts to burning fat (ketones)

The question then becomes: What happens when my carb intake is less than 100g but higher than 20g?

Hypotheticals:
-At 100g I stay the same weight.
-At 50g-99g my body is carb depleted but it may be manageable. I may have slightly less energy, but not severe enough to affect my daily life. At this point, my body isn't worried about trying to survive as I'm maintaining a moderate carb deficit.
-At 20g-49g I have a severe carb depletion. We know that my body is not in ketosis which means it's still hunting for carbs as a source of fuel. So what does it do? It slows my metabolism as a survival mechanism....just about the worst thing you want to happen.
-At <20g my body enters Ketosis and no longer considers carbs as the primary energy source. It begins looking for protein or fat. Due to my high fat intake, it spares my muscle and burns ketones (fat) instead.

The bottom line: At 20g-49g my "carb flu" may continue indefinitely. My body needs 2-5x the amount of carbs to maintain its size, but I'm still consuming too many for it to begin resorting to fat.

Lamont D · Oct 1, 2015

TorqPenderloin said:
I'm not sure why, but there seems to be a misunderstanding that I'm against a LCHF diet. That is simply not the case. In fact, I've tried several types of low carb diets in the past and had phenomenal results.

What I'm trying to explain is that a "carb flu" could technically last forever if you maintained a severe carb depletion, but not enough to enter into ketosis.

I'll use round numbers in hopes of making my point clearer. It needs to be understood that I'm promoting the same thing as many of you just in a different way.

Let's say 100g of carbs is my maintenance. However, I want to start a LCHF diet to keep my type 2 under control.
Let's also say that at <20g of carbs my body enters ketosis- the point at which my body resorts to burning fat (ketones)

The question then becomes: What happens when my carb intake is less than 100g but higher than 20g?

Hypotheticals:
-At 100g I stay the same weight.
-At 50g-99g my body is carb depleted but it may be manageable. I may have slightly less energy, but not severe enough to affect my daily life. At this point, my body isn't worried about trying to survive as I'm maintaining a moderate carb deficit.
-At 20g-49g I have a severe carb depletion. We know that my body is not in ketosis which means it's still hunting for carbs as a source of fuel. So what does it do? It slows my metabolism as a survival mechanism....just about the worst thing you want to happen.
-At <20g my body enters Ketosis and no longer considers carbs as the primary energy source. It begins looking for protein or fat. Due to my high fat intake, it spares my muscle and burns ketones (fat) instead.

The bottom line: At 20g-49g my "carb flu" may continue indefinitely. My body needs 2-5x the amount of carbs to maintain its size, but I'm still consuming too many for it to begin resorting to fat.

My carb flu lasted a couple of days, and it was no worse than hypo hell!
I soon got used to living without many carbs!

You are assuming that everyone counts the littlest item of food they eat, at which does anybody enter or exit ketosis, I have no idea. It probably as with most things blood glucose wise, everyone differs!

If you over think something it can become obsessive.
I don't have time, but I do have energy and I don't want to waste it wondering whether I'm in or out of ketosis, my body tells me!
I do have a good awareness of what happening to my body wether hypos or ketosis!
There are some here on the forum will give you precise answers, but I couldn't even if I wanted to.
I want to live my life!

tigerlily72 · Oct 1, 2015

ausasha said:
Hi

It is normal to feel that way, but I agree with the fact that you may need to add some carbs. Sweet potato is a healthier option, as well as red quinoa (red specifically, though not proven) or barley or buckwheat. If you like bread, granary bread is better than white, or wholemeal. If you like rice, try going for a longer grain rice, or red rice or brown rice. Also, fibre, like porridge or beans.

Try and see if you can see a dietician as well, would be helpful.

Goodluck!

Hi. I've had sweet potato once since I changed my (bad) eating habits. I've cut right down on bread but have bought wholemeal bread for when I want a slice or two. We had a curry (homemade and cooked by hubby about a week ago) and I had brown basmati rice.

I'm going to discuss with the diabetic nurse when I see her next week.

tigerlily72 · Oct 1, 2015

Enclave said:
As a success sorry for Low carb high fat way of eating I would like to advise that First you get yourself a bs meter .. the finger pricker is not showing any needles .. and then you can start to eat to your meter readings. I eat around 20 to 30g of carbs a day .. I also eat quite a lot of cheeses, olive oil, coconut oil and nuts (I am a vegetarian .. so don't eat fish or meat) If you carb count and keep your fat intake up, (no low fat foods as they are full of sugar) you will get carb flu .. it will last a week or two ..then you will feel great ... as time goes on you should notice your weight had dropped ..i lost 5st in 18months ,, still got few more to loose and its going nicely.

Tell your husband he can join you with this new way of eating as LCHF is not exclusive for diabetes .. But you MUST remember to eat the fat part of this diet .. full fat milk ..full fat cheese .. olive oil ..coconut oil is very good .. to keep your fats up .. once you get the balance right you will feel fitter and have lots of energy .

Most (not all) diabetic nurses and Drs will disapprove of the LCHF and show you the eat well plate to follow ..its up to you then what you want to do .. (The eat well plate got me to increase my weight and raise my bs to dangerous levels .)

Hope this helps

Cheese is one of my weaknesses so I have been eating full fat mature cheddar as a snack with a couple of oatcakes. I use the SD Codefree to test my blood sugar.

I'd not heard of "carb flu" Maybe that's what I have? But as I don't really understand what this means I'm not sure

I just want to feel better as I feel pretty awful in the mornings

tigerlily72 · Oct 1, 2015

CatLadyNZ said:
I wouldn't be able to eat any of these foods without getting a big spike in my BG levels. Dieticians typically advise people to eat a lot of carbs.

I have lost a lot of weight on a LCHF diet and I recommend it to anyone wanting BG control and weight loss. You do need to eat enough fats to keep your energy levels up and avoid hunger. If I eat something carby I get carb flu for a few days afterwards, so maybe that is what is happening to you tigerlily, if you cut out bread and potatoes completely, then after a few days you might get past the carb flu and feel better. That's what happened for me.

I've just googled Carb flu and I think it may be responsible for how I feel. I DID lose a fair amount of weight in literally 3-5 days - about 1/2 stone. I just thought the new pair of scales I bought had been wrong!!!

I'm not eating potatoes at all - it would probably be once a week if that. I have introduced bread back in, but wholemeal bread and about 2 slices a day unless I really crave it and I have a sneaky extra slice

ButtterflyLady · Oct 1, 2015

tigerlily72 said:
Cheese is one of my weaknesses so I have been eating full fat mature cheddar as a snack with a couple of oatcakes. I use the SD Codefree to test my blood sugar.

I'd not heard of "carb flu" Maybe that's what I have? But as I don't really understand what this means I'm not sure

I just want to feel better as I feel pretty awful in the mornings

Carb flu is an informal term for feeling tired and unwell when you first cut down on carbs. It usually passes within a few days to a week. If you have been feeling unwell for more than a week, then there may be another cause.

Is this normal . . . .?

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