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Ivor, Keto, Cancer and Calories.

I think 'Ambush' is a great word to describe what was going on in the journalist's mind. That along with 'Fight,Fight, Fight!'. Ivor was cool under fire and in the face of someone ( the Prof.) who was never going to be convinced by a non medic in such a short space of time. I have only heard/read of keto being used as an adjunct to conventional treatment by those in the know.
 
Cancer cells are nasty and resourceful...starving them may not be so simple...

Ketone body utilization drives tumor growth and metastasis
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3507492/?log$=activity

Abstract
We have previously proposed that catabolic fibroblasts generate mitochondrial fuels (such as ketone bodies) to promote the anabolic growth of human cancer cells and their metastasic dissemination. We have termed this new paradigm “two-compartment tumor metabolism.” Here, we further tested this hypothesis by using a genetic approach. For this purpose, we generated hTERT-immortalized fibroblasts overexpressing the rate-limiting enzymes that promote ketone body production, namely BDH1 and HMGCS2. Similarly, we generated MDA-MB-231 human breast cancer cells overexpressing the key enzyme(s) that allow ketone body re-utilization, OXCT1/2 and ACAT1/2. Interestingly, our results directly show that ketogenic fibroblasts are catabolic and undergo autophagy, with a loss of caveolin-1 (Cav-1) protein expression. Moreover, ketogenic fibroblasts increase the mitochondrial mass and growth of adjacent breast cancer cells. However, most importantly, ketogenic fibroblasts also effectively promote tumor growth, without a significant increase in tumor angiogenesis. Finally, MDA-MB-231 cells overexpressing the enzyme(s) required for ketone re-utilization show dramatic increases in tumor growth and metastatic capacity. Our data provide the necessary genetic evidence that ketone body production and re-utilization drive tumor progression and metastasis. As such, ketone inhibitors should be designed as novel therapeutics to effectively treat advanced cancer patients, with tumor recurrence and metastatic disease. In summary, ketone bodies behave as onco-metabolites, and we directly show that the enzymes HMGCS2, ACAT1/2 and OXCT1/2 are bona fide metabolic oncogenes.
 
I'm not so sure:-

To investigate the compartment-specific role of ketogenesis in breast cancer, we first overexpressed two key enzymes for ketone generation, HMGCS2 and BDH1, in hTERT-immortalized human fibroblasts.
Click to expand...

So modified two agressive cell lines to prefer ketones.

Our data provide the necessary genetic evidence that ketone body production and re-utilization drive tumor progression and metastasis.
Click to expand...

I think that's a bold claim, and misses out some qualifiers, like 'could drive', or 'might drive'. But from my reading, the paper shows that cells modified to prefer ketosis like ketones. It seems a stretch to then jump to suggesting ketone inhibitors as a panacea, or that those enzymes are carcinogenic. That goes back to the news report, which seemed to be bashing ketogenic diets, and also where I liked Ivor Cummings responses.

So to me, it's not that simple. Cancer cells can be 'normal' cells growing in the wrong place, or mutated cells that do the wrong thing in the right place. But they're cells, so need to feed. If the mutation means they can't, they die and don't become a problem. but that's why cancer's a wicked problem because a 'cure' may mean creating something that can target say, epithelial cells growing in a tumour somewhere, but not affecting those cells where they're meant to be.

I think that's also where the report fell down a bit and seemed to jump to keto bashing. There's a lot of bad diet advice and health promotions, but science demands evidence. If someone's got problems with their ketone metabolism, then obviously a ketogenic diet would be a bad thing. Similarly if an oncologist does a biopsy and identifies a ketone-favoring tumour, then it would also be a bad thing. But a cell is a cell, and has to get it's energy from somewhere.

Skimming through the citations for that paper seem to show there's still conflicting opinion, which was the point Ivor Cummings made, ie the evidence either way is still uncertain.
 
I am up for having the very best treatment scientifically endorsed for treatment for cancer.

However, it is interesting there is some suggestion that Metformin reduces cancer risk. I wonder why? Could it be as simple as Metformin reducing blood glucose?

Now that cancer has been officially linked to obesity! If I want to reduce my risk of cancer by not being obese, it seems a logical step to stop producing insulin by cutting carbs.
regards
D.
 
As someone losing weight On a Keto diet to improve reduction in blood glucose levels and overall health, it’s bit worrying if doing the right thing as awaiting further tests for possibility of breast cancer. These days it’s hard to know what’s best to do, so much conflicting advice around
 
My cancer was endometrial which was removed through my recent op however the risk factors are identified as age, never having children, diabetes and obesity! I have, to a certain degree all 4 in that I am 58 and have no children however, I am overweight as opposed to obese and with an Hba1c in the low to mid 30s for the last 4 years am I still diabetic? I think getting cancer is, in many cases, just bad luck as we have all known people who are fit, seemingly healthy only to get cancer, heart disease or have a stroke etc.
 

When I was going through breast cancer and asking the usual "why me" questions, every answer I had from nurses, oncologists and breast surgeons was if it is not genetic then it is random. Yes, there are lists of risk factors on the various breast cancer websites, including such things as age and obesity but these are only determined by people looking at personal data from patients with breast cancer, and as a majority of UK women are overweight to begin with, it isn't surprising that obesity is on the list. When they talk of age, it refers to the over 70's as it is known that a good percentage of newly diagnosed breast cancer cases are women of that age and over. (my mum was in her 80's when she was diagnosed). In my chemo group of 24 ladies, ages ranged from 34 to 66. Some were fit athletic types, some were petite, some weren't. Out of the 24, only one was diabetic (not me - my diabetes came later). There seemed to be no pattern.
 
 
I couldn’t agree more, I know many people like yourself who have had mixed illnesses. I had a recent brush with cancer, but was lucky this time. It must be very hard juggling that and diabetes. I had a family full of type one and two diabetes sadly most are no longer with us, but mostly due to heart disease. It is such a struggle for everyone with illness to watch everything you put in your mouth. I don’t profess to be a good diabetic, I have been at levels far higher for quite sometime. What I know is at 54 I have a chance to try and get a bit fitter and lose some weight. So far the keto diet is helping me and I have lost nearly one and half stone. Hopefully in time I maybe able to reduce meds as I was bordering on insulin. Having friends, and counselling when needed has been an immense help, we should all talk more, your not alone even when we sometimes feel it. Not sure about your diabetes, but trying to keep positive deal with each day as a new day, is an uphill challenge but seems that you have a very positive attitude, I hope you win the battle. X
 
SockFiddler said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-43502144

Thought this was relevant to this discussion.
Click to expand...
Without going into the vast diatribe of facts about illnesses and theory of cures. One thing we all know is diabetes, cancer and obesity are on the rise. Surely for all of us to be more healthy about our food choices and take more exercise has got to be a good thing, even if it does or doesn’t follow the latest craze.
 
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