low carbs v high carbs

Sid Bonkers said:

No not at all, these links are saying that the percentage of energy intake should be 45 -60% not that you should eat 45-60% of your meal as carbs.

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Let's assume that you eat 2500kcal a day (although the maths is exactly the same for 1500kcal, or even 500kcal a day)

Diet 1 Zero-Fat:
50% of your energy intake from carbs=1250kcal= 312.5g of carb
50% from protein=1250kcal=312.5g of protein

Diet 2 Zero-Protein:
50% of your energy intake from carbs=1250kcal=312.5g of carb
50% of your energy intake from fat=156.25g of fat

Both these diets represent extremes of the spectrum for a 50% carbohydrate diet (and both will kill you), but in the first 50% of your food is carbohydrate (the minimum possible amount), in the second 66% of your food comes from carbohydrate (the maximum possible amount). Therefore if 50% of your energy comes from carbohydrate then at least 50% of your injested food by mass must be carbohydrate

Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

The NHS guidelines for diabetics are therefore recommending a High Carbohydrate Diet.

Sid Bonkers said:

You only post the % of carbs and not the % of fat, it really just brings us back to your theory that we should all eat more fat which many of us do not agree with.

Yes we all need to eat fewer carbs to control our bg levels but we dont all need to eat more fat, the fact that you keep insisting that we all do seems strange to me, is it some sort of crusade?

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Please don't personalise this (again). You asked me to show you evidence of the NHS recommending a high carbohydrate diet to diabetics. That's exactly what I have done. My opinion on fat intake is irrelevant (they didn't consult me when they wrote the guidelines), and I'm not on any sort of crusade.

As a reminder...

Sid Bonkers said:

I am yet to see this NHS leaflet that tells diabetics to eat a high carb diet can one of you please show me where I can see one?

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If over 50% of your diet (by mass or energy) for a diabetic is not a high carb diet then what it?

Diabetes UK describe anything up to 45% of energy intake from carb as "moderate carb". Greater than that must be high.

Xyzz is always mentioning the Swedish guidelines so what do they say ? Unless you can read Swedish, you have to put up with the translation and formatting errors though.
http://translate.google.co.uk/translate ... md%3Dimvns

They specify 4 diets for which there is long term scientific evidence of effectiveness ( glucose/lipids/weight loss)
The Traditional diabetic diet. composition: fat :25-35%, carbs 50-60%, protein 15-20%
Moderate carbohydrate restriction composition:fat >40%, carbs 30-40%, protein>20%
Mediterranean diet, composition: fat 35-40%, carbs 45-50%, protein 15-20%
Traditional diabetic diet compostion with low glycemic index. fat :25-35%, carbs 50-60%, protein 15-20% (low GI carbs)

They also mention the 'Extreme low carbohydrate diet' for which there is as yet (this is what they say) no good long term evidence. They describe the diet mentioning that it may reduce post prandial spikes. They include with caveats (watching kidney function, using non saturated fats
Extreme low carb diet: >50%, carbs 10-20%, protein<30%

Now I like to use an 1800 calorie diet as an example. It was often used in the past for a 'typical' diabetes diet and as a post menopausal woman is about right for me. Others may need more or less, depending of gender and activity level.
For carbs this works out as
traditional and traditional low glycemic 225-270 g carbs
Moderate carb restriction 135 - 180 g carbs
Med diet 202- 225g carbs
Extreme low carb 45- 90 g carb
Remember this is not just starchy carbs and includes carbs from all sources including those in vegetables , dairy and fruit. Quite often I notice that people who don't have to count these carbs for dosing purposes forget that they exist.
The swedish diabetes plate (slightly modified in Idaho but can't find the original) looks something like this... and is incidently what they used in the diabetic education I had in France (though the low GI version) . My own diet at 40-45% carb seems to fit somewhere between a Med and a Moderate carb restricted diet with low GI! (definitions will vary :lol: )
I can tell you of at least one T2 on here that also sucessfully uses a similar model.

None of these diets would be normally labelled high carb diets, diets with much higher levels of carbs have been tried including the legume diet mentioned by Hana. ( Theres a man on diabetes stories, started that one in the Oxford trial in the seventies, continued successfully with it for 20+ years... until his wife died and he didn't know how to cook the beans!)
These diets obviously have very low protein/fat content. Such a diet has been used in parts of India for many years ( mainly vegan high carb (67%)/high fibre )
http://mdrfeprints.in/428/1/High_carboh ... abetes.pdf .
Neal Barnard's vegan diet also has some evidence of effectiveness and that is 75% carbohydrate http://www.ajcn.org/content/89/5/1588S.full.pdf I have read of people that have reported great success on that one... not for me though!

borofergie said:

catherinecherub said:

Nobody is right or wrong, you have to devise your own plan. I was told on diagnosis about the role of carbohydrates and to find a level suitable for me by testing and cutting them down until I found a suitable levels. My DR. sees me as a NH patient so where did he get his advice? The problem seems to me to be not the dietary advice but the lack of testing facilities for Type2's. If this advice is being handed out minus a meter and educating patients about the use of the meter and what it tells you about the meals you have eaten, there wouldn't be such a problem.

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I agree with you completely apart from "nobody is right or wrong". Telling diabetics to eat starchy carbs with every meal is wrong. I don't think that there is anyone in this community that thinks that you can control diabetes without controlling your carbs to some extent. That clearly isn't the message from these leaflets.

I'm glad that, as an educated intelligent woman, you were able to work out a good diet for yourself. This forum is largely a self-selecting group of similarly intelligent people (plus the curious newly diagnosed who are seeking an answer). I don't think that the vast majority of newly diagnosed diabetics have the courage, the knowledge or the resolve to challenge the basic information that they are given.





Sid seems to be able to control his diabetes with (small portions) of starchy carbs with every meal, you seem to be able to control yours with low-GI carbs. It's a long route from "eating starchy carbs with every meal" to finding out either of those diets if you don't have the capacity to do your own research.

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I don't think that the vast majority of newly diagnosed diabetics have the courage, the knowledge or the resolve to challenge the basic information that they are given.

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I have agreed with all of your posts so far. A low carb diet is the only diet for me, and has been from diagnosis. By saying the vast majority of newly diagnosed wouldn't challenge info given is wrong IMO. Many of us, and certainly all I have read here, have taken the GP's advice torn it to shreds and listened to those who live with diabetes daily, and longer than we newly diagnosed have. I now, with this forum and a test meter, can keep my levels reasonably stable, and in the main much better than my HbA1c result.

Sid advocates carbs with each meal, but in moderation, I couldn't cope with that, I would be spiking all over the place. I stick to a rigid 30g a day or less of carbs, it's the only way I can control my BG.

While I suspect some newly, as well as long term diabetics do follow advice given, most get such a fright, they will at least research a little, and IMO that's how so many of us come here.

I would always advocate starting on a low carb diet and adding small amounts of carbs until you find a level that your body is happy with. Sometimes I think 30g a day is too much for my body to accept, but realise I simply can't go any lower. But for my BG sake I can't afford to go higher.