ND research - the view from ‘the other side’ ( as some see them)

Boo1979 said:

Cheers Fleegie
Ive not really had that much to do with diabetes forums, but from what Ive seen on the ones Ive looked at, they seem to be beset by the same kind of tribalism that rears its ugly head here from time to time in discussions regarding diet. As with here, it also seems to be a reletively small number of voices among the overall membership dominating discussions and driving the conflict so Im not sure what that means regarding the views of the memberships as a whole. Maybe thats just the way forums are, but if so I do think thats quite sad.

Sorry I cant be of any more help

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It is a shame - maybe just being a member of both is enough.

As ND is comparatively new and full data/results are not widely known it follows that proponents views and success stories that may influence peoples' choices as to which approach they feel might suit them are fewer than other regimes. Hopefully, that will change over time especially if ND proves to be worthy of long term studies.

Let’s remember that most people doing the ND who are members of this forum will not be doing it in the way it is likely to be rolled out by the NHS. Due to.

• The latest study included support based on Cognitive Behaviour Therapy as part of the food reintroduction phase.
• However, everyone on this forum knows about “low carb” and therefore is likely to consider the level of carbs they have when reintroducing food.

I am very positive about people doing ND themselves on this forum provided they know the issues with the reintroduction of food. However, I don’t consider ND to be a good “default” option for the NHS given how good results Dr David Unwin can get with all people by explaining the effect of carbs. Dr David Unwin method is much lower cost than ND and also does not exclude people who are not willing to commit.

One of the main issues I have with ND as it is likely to be presented by the NHS is that people who don’t lose a lot of weight and keep it off are considered to have failed due to lack of willpower. With “low carb” everyone can succeed as improved BG compared to what it would have been is easy.

Boo1979 said:

https://www.diabetes.org.uk/researc...hrough&utm_campaign=Enewsletter+December+2017

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So the half on the low calorie diet for up to 20wks "started producing insulin again".
I could have sworn type2 is where insulin is produced more than none diabetics but its pathway is blocked due to fat cells. Brown fat. Wrong kind of fat. Fat which isn't produced if you take metformin. We that's just me then?

I know I produce my own insulin as if I forget an insulin injection eventually my bgs go lower, eventually. (Eating protein only in next meal but no insulin just metformin.) Remember metformin isn't insulin nor a med to encourage insulin production.
Hence I still produce too much insulin and need huge amounts injected too. So I can still get energy to get on with life.

ringi said:

Let’s remember that most people doing the ND who are members of this forum will not be doing it in the way it is likely to be rolled out by the NHS. Due to.

• The latest study included support based on Cognitive Behaviour Therapy as part of the food reintroduction phase.
• However, everyone on this forum knows about “low carb” and therefore is likely to consider the level of carbs they have when reintroducing food.

I am very positive about people doing ND themselves on this forum provided they know the issues with the reintroduction of food. However, I don’t consider ND to be a good “default” option for the NHS given how good results Dr David Unwin can get with all people by explaining the effect of carbs. Dr David Unwin method is much lower cost than ND and also does not exclude people who are not willing to commit.

One of the main issues I have with ND as it is likely to be presented by the NHS is that people who don’t lose a lot of weight and keep it off are considered to have failed due to lack of willpower. With “low carb” everyone can succeed as improved BG compared to what it would have been is easy.

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Totally agree.

I feel ND a very old fashioned view to strict over weight people on a very low calorie diet. "There that will get rid of their fat" attitude. Erm "no". Not one of the 300 subjects reached perfect bmi. Half then 48% of that half hit remission (for a year).
So fat isn't the direct cause of type2. Sorry but this research proves that. Some lost more weight than those who hit remission but not in remission.
Pathway for the insulin gets blocked. End of. Those who hit remission were lucky their body hadnt forgotten their insulin's pathway when drip fed nourishment.
I'd say their body hadnt developed properly when weaned as a baby. Hence a toddler version of insulin production, still not fermented the bodies routine of processing solid food and hitting the correct pathway for energy conversion. Hence a toddler very very energetic to burn solid food and eat very regularly. High metabolism starts there!

That is why 600/800cals works as it slows down the bodies need to convert. Of course it reduces insulin release. Less food needs processing.

So back to retraining your body from liquid food to solid food.
Very very much what bariatric surgery does.

A restart from scratch except not the constant hunger nor ignoring the leptin response that ND causes which bariatric surgery doesn't.
I still prefer bariatric option as your body gets that chance to start from scratch and given time to heal too. As long as it takes.
ND if fed out as common practice in the nhs it will be given ridget targets and black and white expectations.
At least with bariatric surgery that isn't imposed. Everyone heals differently, diabetics slower than others at times.
Remember bariatric surgery is more common in none diabetics than diabetics. Those who are diabetic get very very good remission/reversal rates. More than ND.
ND will be reserved for patients who aren't suitable for surgery, I guess. An alternative but not the best success rate.

ickihun said:

So the half on the low calorie diet for up to 20wks "started producing insulin again".

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I have not read the paper etc yet, but I expect this is the "first insulin response", people without Type2 create a lot of insulin very quickly when there BG goes up a very little bit. We tend not to increase the insulin we produce until after the BG has gone up a lot.

This is why with Type2 having a small "starter" before a large meal can result in lower post-meal BG then without the starter. But I have not seen any research showing a benefit from this lower post-meal BG, but I don't know how much it has been investigated.

ringi said:

I have not read the paper etc yet, but I expect this is the "first insulin response", people without Type2 create a lot of insulin very quickly when there BG goes up a very little bit. We tend not to increase the insulin we produce until after the BG has gone up a lot.

This is why with Type2 having a small "starter" before a large meal can result in lower post-meal BG then without the starter. But I have not seen any research showing a benefit from this lower post-meal BG, but I don't know how much it has been investigated.

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I wish I got that. Although most starters are carby.
What I normally do is select low carb items from meal out choices and order them to come as a main and potato or chips with steak or protein I pass on to hubby.
He's getting bigger as I'm shrinking.
Carbs are soooooo fattening.
I don't have a starter or sweet anymore.

So if I had a protein only starter would that work to encourage my first phase insulin?
Very difficult to check as I cannot eat much these days anyway. Even less after bariatric surgery.

Grandson for the last month has been virtually zero carb not because of diabetes but for his body building, but has been eating a enormous amount of protein he has lost over a stone all fat not muscle.

Edit to add I have no idea what his blood sugars are doing as he steadfastly refuses to check them.