Newbie trying Newcastle diet.

moonchip said:

one mile is 1.604 km

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You guys are cute! For the conversion to be meaningful I have to have a clear idea of how far 1.604 km is in the first place, lol. (What did we do before the internet? Hard to imagine!) (Hard to remember!)

brettsza said:

To be honest it was only diet, I did not exercise at all, never found the time but on nd I am forcing myself, my day begins at 530 and ends at 1130 so very busy but the only time I have is my lunch time of an hour and I walk 2 miles to andfrom the station to home. I only did lchf but I was very strict with my carbs, kept them at 40g most of the times but on odd days less than 10 for whole day. Its all thanks to this forum and the members here who have all been super supportive, definitely couldn't do without all this help. 142 to 39 in 6 months and I expect this to gofurther down to may be early 30's this time. I am 4 all day except a 5 after 1 hour of shake which is too sweet for me as I don't have a sweet tooth and now scared I might have it after I finish ND

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Very impressive indeed.

jack412 said:

I think too much exercise burns muscles not fat. when in a low input state.

@The little white hen you have done well, now could be the time you start sorting out a long term diet for the rest of your life, otherwise some yo-yo and put the weight back on with old eating habits. I would look at a low carb
http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/lowcarb101/a/carblevel.htm

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Too much exercise burning muscles? Yes, and why it is very important, and excuse the hippyish phrase - to listen to one's body. We humans have so much variation in our bodies and what is good and healthy for us as individuals that it is crucial to pay attention, especially when having a chronic dysfunction like we have. I would say, not just listen to our own bodies, but those of close family members too (OK - that really does sound weird lol) - in terms of treating our T2D aggressively (if that is what is wanted, and folk in this thread are into that I would say) - see what folk who share 50% or even 25% of our DNA are doing to have well functioning bodies.

I personally come from a muscley athletic bodied lot. Amongst my siblings I was the odd one out in the plump stakes. I am also the only one with T2D. I wish it wasn't so - that my liver and pancreas had no problems with the fat and muscle thing I had going - but sadly it did, and still does, probably. (And I really wish that wasn't so, but I am working on it.)

That is my usual long-winded way of saying when it comes to exercise there are different strokes for different folks! (And different body types.) I would have to exercise one helluva lot before it was too much. (And believe you me, I wish it wasn't so.)

I didn't explain it that well..with the ND, you have cut the carbs and haven't replace the lost energy with fats to use as fuel, the body can't burn body fat fast enough to keep up, so it starts burning muscle.
just the first google link, there would be better science explanations
http://www.caloriesecrets.net/how-to-lose-body-fat-without-losing-muscle/
"Too much cardio exercise can be stressful for your body, especially when your carbohydrate stores start being low and in result you actually muscle burning."

jack412 said:

I didn't explain it that well..with the ND, you have cut the carbs and haven't replace the lost energy with fats to use as fuel, the body can't burn body fat fast enough to keep up, so it starts burning muscle.
just the first google link, there would be better science explanations
http://www.caloriesecrets.net/how-to-lose-body-fat-without-losing-muscle/
"Too much cardio exercise can be stressful for your body, especially when your carbohydrate stores start being low and in result you actually muscle burning."

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Ah ok - you meant on a VLCD. Quite right.

If one has built up hard earnt muscle, it is a common anxiety to worry about losing that muscle during a semi starvation diet, for sure. I worried about it too. It didn't turn out to be too big a problem, but I was not able to be as active as I was on a full calorie count while on both the VLCD and the LCD during the second month, but I cannot imagine that is not to be expected. (Regardless of the admonition to keep up regular levels of exercise.)

I am just hugely grateful now to be eating again normally, and being able to move easily, and in no hurry to be opting for even the odd days of hunger and inability to walk longish distances due to lack of energy. But - famous last words. Perhaps that is a very normal reaction to having been hungry for two months. Who would want to do it again in a hurry?! (Not me.)

jack412 said:

http://www.caloriesecrets.net/how-to-lose-body-fat-without-losing-muscle/
"Too much cardio exercise can be stressful for your body, especially when your carbohydrate stores start being low and in result you actually muscle burning."

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A good ref - thanks heaps for that.

Though for me, I have always said that I am really pleased I didn't know the science behind fat burning and muscle burning, otherwise I might have done things differently. And as soon as I got my diagnosis I started walking, and walking, and walking some more. And this worked very well for me to bring down weight and blood glucose levels down, pretty pronto smart. Even with a known gallstone (and exercising a lot is not recommended for folk with active gallstones, because it can raise triglyceride levels really high as the fat burns off and enters the blood stream and create fat havoc - exactly what happened with me in terms of my blood lipids - but no worries to the gallstone! Thank goodness.) Walking heaps worked for me in terms of large and reasonably fast weight loss, and subsequent lowering of my HBA1c.

But as I say - I was an athletic body type gone to seed. (Many many years seeded lol.) And, I knew this about myself.

Which brings me back to my point about knowing your own body, and its delights and drawbacks. In this case - when or even if it is that your body becomes muscle burning (and response to carbs and proteins etc I guess) in relation to exercise.

jack412 said:

I didn't explain it that well..with the ND, you have cut the carbs and haven't replace the lost energy with fats to use as fuel, the body can't burn body fat fast enough to keep up, so it starts burning muscle.
just the first google link, there would be better science explanations
http://www.caloriesecrets.net/how-to-lose-body-fat-without-losing-muscle/
"Too much cardio exercise can be stressful for your body, especially when your carbohydrate stores start being low and in result you actually muscle burning."

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To be even more clear - studies on VLCD's have come up with a couple techniques to minimize loss of lean muscle mass (losing some is unavoidable)

1. Get 50g of protein per day (more is even better).

2. Exercise - not just cardio, but resistance/weight training. However, the key is to exercise LIGHTLY - don't push too hard, and make sure you get some calories within a half hour of your exercise.

3. Worth repeating - exercise will help a lot with reducing the loss of muscle mass (and losing muscle mass is what hurts your metabolism and what will also potentially harm insulin sensitivity) but do not do not do not overdo it.

or listen to dr taylors ND talk where he says, exercise for fitness, don't exercise to lose weight and he doesn't care what you eat or diet type..as long as you lose weight.
start at 1:00 hour near the end
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/events/public-lectures/item.php?roy-taylor-diabetes

jack412 said:

or listen to dr taylors ND talk where he says, exercise for fitness, don't exercise to lose weight and he doesn't care what you eat or diet type..as long as you lose weight.
start at 1:00 hour near the end
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/events/public-lectures/item.php?roy-taylor-diabetes

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Exactly right: diet is how you lose weight, exercise is how you get healthy. There are lots of thin people who are not healthy . . . and lots of otherwise healthy people who are carrying extra weight.

But it's a lot easier to exercise after you've lost weight than it is to lose weight by exercising. So again, the reason to exercise while on the Newcastle isn't to speed the weightloss - the reason to exercise while on Newcastle is to reduce the loss of muscle while you're losing all the fat, and at the same time limit the damage to your metabolism.

Glitterbritches said:

Exactly right: diet is how you lose weight, exercise is how you get healthy. There are lots of thin people who are not healthy . . . and lots of otherwise healthy people who are carrying extra weight.

But it's a lot easier to exercise after you've lost weight than it is to lose weight by exercising. So again, the reason to exercise while on the Newcastle isn't to speed the weightloss - the reason to exercise while on Newcastle is to reduce the loss of muscle while you're losing all the fat, and at the same time limit the damage to your metabolism.

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Thank goodness then I have never exercised to lose weight - I started moving more in order to save my eyesight and my feet! lol. And it was a great way to allay the enormous anxiety around those nasty complications of this b****** of a disease/dysfunction/illness/condition. (I'm feeling a bit ****** off about having T2D today.) Freaking out about ending up on a kidney dialysis machine? Go do 20 wall push-ups, 20 squats, and 20 crunches, and walk up and down 12 flights of stairs. Works for me. Even when on a VLCD.

And something that gave me a sense of awestruck wonder at muscle and the intricasies of our bodily functions is the Glut4 pathway. Combined with relief! Here from good ol' wikipedia: "Many researchers have shown that physical exercise has an effective role in the treatment of NIDDM patients. Physical exercise increases the rate of glucose uptake into the contracting skeletal muscles, which is regulated by GLUT4." The first time I came across Glut4, in Robb Wolf's 'The Paleo Solution' (a Paleo lifestyle 'bible'), it was presented as an alternative path for dealing with blood glucose - without the need of insulin. (I have since read that that may not be the case - that insulin is necessary for the Glut4 path to work - so who knows! If someone does - sing out!) But to activate the Glut4 mechanism - those muscles have to be in use. Our wonderful bodies! They work so much better when we keep 'em moving...

AloeSvea said:

Thank goodness then I have never exercised to lose weight - I started moving more in order to save my eyesight and my feet! lol. And it was a great way to allay the enormous anxiety around those nasty complications of this b****** of a disease/dysfunction/illness/condition. (I'm feeling a bit ****** off about having T2D today.) Freaking out about ending up on a kidney dialysis machine? Go do 20 wall push-ups, 20 squats, and 20 crunches, and walk up and down 12 flights of stairs. Works for me. Even when on a VLCD.

And something that gave me a sense of awestruck wonder at muscle and the intricasies of our bodily functions is the Glut4 pathway. Combined with relief! Here from good ol' wikipedia: "Many researchers have shown that physical exercise has an effective role in the treatment of NIDDM patients. Physical exercise increases the rate of glucose uptake into the contracting skeletal muscles, which is regulated by GLUT4." The first time I came across Glut4, in Robb Wolf's 'The Paleo Solution' (a Paleo lifestyle 'bible'), it was presented as an alternative path for dealing with blood glucose - without the need of insulin. (I have since read that that may not be the case - that insulin is necessary for the Glut4 path to work - so who knows! If someone does - sing out!) But to activate the Glut4 mechanism - those muscles have to be in use. Our wonderful bodies! They work so much better when we keep 'em moving...

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Yup! Exercise makes you healthy, but is a lousy way to lose weight. Calorie restriction is the best way to lose weight . . . and although less body fat makes you healthier, it's not the same degree of health that comes with regular exercise.

AloeSvea said:

Thank goodness then I have never exercised to lose weight - I started moving more in order to save my eyesight and my feet! lol. And it was a great way to allay the enormous anxiety around those nasty complications of this b****** of a disease/dysfunction/illness/condition. (I'm feeling a bit ****** off about having T2D today.) Freaking out about ending up on a kidney dialysis machine? Go do 20 wall push-ups, 20 squats, and 20 crunches, and walk up and down 12 flights of stairs. Works for me. Even when on a VLCD.

And something that gave me a sense of awestruck wonder at muscle and the intricasies of our bodily functions is the Glut4 pathway. Combined with relief! Here from good ol' wikipedia: "Many researchers have shown that physical exercise has an effective role in the treatment of NIDDM patients. Physical exercise increases the rate of glucose uptake into the contracting skeletal muscles, which is regulated by GLUT4." The first time I came across Glut4, in Robb Wolf's 'The Paleo Solution' (a Paleo lifestyle 'bible'), it was presented as an alternative path for dealing with blood glucose - without the need of insulin. (I have since read that that may not be the case - that insulin is necessary for the Glut4 path to work - so who knows! If someone does - sing out!) But to activate the Glut4 mechanism - those muscles have to be in use. Our wonderful bodies! They work so much better when we keep 'em moving...

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As a T2, we likely have aplenty insulin sloshing around our systems, so from a personal viewpoint it doesn't matter too much to me. Do you harbour concerns you are T1?

AndBreathe said:

As a T2, we likely have aplenty insulin sloshing around our systems, so from a personal viewpoint it doesn't matter too much to me. Do you harbour concerns you are T1?

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I think the research is pretty clear that excess insulin is not a good thing for anybody to have floating around in their system:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinsulinemia

Indy51 said:

I think the research is pretty clear that excess insulin is not a good thing for anybody to have floating around in their system:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinsulinemia

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Which is why diet and exercise together are so crucial for T2 diabetics - weight loss restores pancreatic function (increased insulin response) while exercise reduces insulin resistance (better glucose clearance rates/less need for insulin).

Indy51 said:

I think the research is pretty clear that excess insulin is not a good thing for anybody to have floating around in their system:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinsulinemia

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I completely agree with you Indy. Maybe I misinterpreted @AlowSvea 's post.

brettsza said:

Hey moonchip

How are you, how are you getting along with ND

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Hey Brettsza, I'm doing really well thanks - my waistline continues to shrink (my only measure as I'm not becoming a slave to weighing myself every day !)

I still have boundless energy and feel really great in myself generally ........ the only thing I'm struggling with at present is renal colic (kidney stones) ending up in the Accident & Emergency ward on tuesday.

Its rather stymied my regular exercise - getting out of bed or a chair is excruciating, getting up or down stairs is worse than any roped climb I've ever done and walking from my study to the kitchen feels like a 9-miler !

Its not the worst pain I've ever experienced (I had Cluster Headaches aka suicide headaches a few years ago) but the pain from such a small kidney stone is far out of proportion to its small size.

Needless to say the pain is exceptional with 'waves' of excruciating but hey "that which doesn't kill you only makes you stronger"

As far as ND goes, I continue my 3 water-based shakes daily though I've changed from USN shakes (ASDA) to those offered by MyProtein (Impact Whey Isolate - strawberry cream flavour .....Mmmmmmmm !)

The main reason for this is price - the USN was OK price wise at £23 / 908 grams whereas the IWI is £43 / 2500 grams

We (both my non-diabetic wife & I ) are also giving white kidney bean extract a go --- white kidney bean extract is a known Carb Blocker and works by preventing the enzyme alpha Amylase from breaking down carbohydrates into sugar. Worth trying at only £6 for 90 tablets (capsules)

I hope you're doing well with your ND

AloeSvea said:

You guys are cute! For the conversion to be meaningful I have to have a clear idea of how far 1.604 km is in the first place, lol. (What did we do before the internet? Hard to imagine!) (Hard to remember!)

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Not the internet AloeSvea ........ I'm one of those nerdy boring farts no-one ever wants to play Trivial Pursuits with

AloeSvea said:

You guys are cute! For the conversion to be meaningful I have to have a clear idea of how far 1.604 km is in the first place, lol. (What did we do before the internet? Hard to imagine!) (Hard to remember!)

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OK, continuing on from your post and my 'nerdy boring fart' post above ....

As a regular walker who also navigates (including bad weather & darkness) I know my 'pace count' for varying terrains

On level, compacted footpath / path as a steady walker (think more tortoise than hare ! ) my pace count is 67 paces per 100 meters - checked multiple times via GPS, map references & Google Earth (nerd, right !!)

When you walk - left, right, left, right, etc ...... a 'pace' is from right foot to right foot (or left to left if you prefer)

So, "right foot down, to left foot down and back to right foot down" is one pace (effectively 2 steps) - though its easier to count 'paces' than 'steps' as there are half as many.

This is useful to know for navigational dead reckoning when no visible landmarks are present, at night time ..... or when the GPS has flat batteries

I regularly review my 'pace count' mid walk when I'm into a rhythm and I'm accurate to 1/2 a pace - if you don't know your pace of havent measured it, 70 paces per 100 meters is a good starting point for level, flat well maintained path / pavement. Mine my be a little less due to my height.

Just so you know how I keep track, I have 10 spring-loaded toggles on a lanyard on my left rucksack chest strap - every 100 paces a toggle gets moved down - so by touch alone at my left hip (counting toggles) I know my distance covered.

Obviously if you're walking uphill / downhill or on softer ground, the pace count changes -- though I have no change between walking with a pack (rucksack) or without provided my pack weight is less than 40% of my body weight

No doubt this post will only reinforce the 'nerdy boring fart' reputation ......

AndBreathe said:

As a T2, we likely have aplenty insulin sloshing around our systems, so from a personal viewpoint it doesn't matter too much to me. Do you harbour concerns you are T1?

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Oh yes indeed re lots of insulin sloshing around in there. Quite right. Poor little beta cells!

Nah - I thought about the type 1.5 briefly, but I think the chances of me being an autoimmune type are pretty low, due to me being pretty solidly on the metabolic syndrome spectrum. (And that is why I was never tested for it.)

moonchip said:

Not the internet AloeSvea ........ I'm one of those nerdy boring farts no-one ever wants to play Trivial Pursuits with

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lol. I worked it out with google maps help. To see how far 7 miles is (and what a good distance it is!)