NHS 'Healthier You' Diabetes Prevention Programme

Well done on finding the help needed to go LCHF .

As for the "New Improved, Same Old Thing" courses.

I'd say the NHS is like a huge oil tanker, very slow to turn in another direction.

Likely too many competing viewpoints & vested interests to make the switch so desperately needed on a national scale.

Not ideal, but each gp or practice accepting the evidence, improves the nations health a little more , day by day.

When I started my journey I can think of only one doctor in Southport ( David unwin )
that I knew of embracing LCHF, so it's good to see others adopting a more pragmatic & active approach .

One day we'll win, & the approach to lower carbs will be part of the solutions offered at DX.

My GP got me onto a Second Nature course for my pre-diabetes . Been on it just over a week now and it seems ok. They sent me a free set of digital scales and a cookbook. I also have the support of a dietitian/coach and there's group chat. The emphasis is on balanced meals incorporating low carbs and portion sizes, and there are the usual progress tracking pages. It's all done via an app.

I'm finding it fairly useful so far, but ultimately I keep coming back to DCUK for advice, information and the real-life experience of all the members.

I find (for me anyway) that it's quite instructive to read up on the history of all of this.
It doesn't directly make it any easier to accept why so much of the advice seems totally at odds with the experience of people who have success here in reversing T2DM and insulin resistance, but at least in some cases it makes it easier to understand where some opinions have formed, why they have become embedded, and then - once they have taken hold - why well-meaning professionals can offer advice based on these opinions.

I say this only to point out that I see my role in this, to be a "patient patient" - if I can engage with my GP, acknowledge her biases (even though I don't agree) and just point out the evidence that explains why my situation is improving... hopefully there may be a thought in her head that wasn't there, when she next consults someone else.

I cannot persuade her, and she cannot act outside her guidelines, professionally speaking. If I'm rude, or obnoxious in pushing my views, that can only be a negative; but if I can be unremittingly positive and just show her the evidence - who knows... many of the leaders in the field are doctors who were surprised by their patients.

but on the original topic, there was a time that the idea took hold in medical circles that a sugary snack would "more quickly" produce a feeling of being full, and thus that it might lead to less overall being consumed - it's the extension of the "don't spoil your appetite" line that you will have been told as a kid. Hormonally, it's totally wrong, but still seems like it could be true, so it's still held as a viable opinion.

Ive tried the Second Nature programme but it did little for me but I suspect that was due to me not the programme. The free scales are great and I used the weight tracker as a progress chart.The two main issues I had with SN were:
1, Its all very 'chatty' - join this forum or that, lets get into a group chat..... was more like a diet facebook! For some this might work but as Im not a lover of social media it all got a bit too much.
2, Technical info. As mentioned above, much info out there is outdated or wrong info, even from those who should know better (NHS). There were some good articles (example - reasons for weight loss plateau) but quite a few articles were still peddling the same old tune.

For those wanting advice backed up with science try some of Tim Spectors books or Dr Jason Fung (obesity code)

Bluenote said:

Ive tried the Second Nature programme but it did little for me but I suspect that was due to me not the programme. The free scales are great and I used the weight tracker as a progress chart.The two main issues I had with SN were:
1, Its all very 'chatty' - join this forum or that, lets get into a group chat..... was more like a diet facebook! For some this might work but as Im not a lover of social media it all got a bit too much.
2, Technical info. As mentioned above, much info out there is outdated or wrong info, even from those who should know better (NHS). There were some good articles (example - reasons for weight loss plateau) but quite a few articles were still peddling the same old tune.

For those wanting advice backed up with science try some of Tim Spectors books or Dr Jason Fung (obesity code)

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Yes love Tim Spector!

Susan_W said:

A friend who has just started attending group sessions on this programme told me she was advised to include snacks between meals to maintain healthy blood sugar control - the total opposite of what I understood. So I looked up the details of this programme, and sadly it seems that apart from the weighing and coaching etc, all that you get on the programme is the standard advice to base your food intake on the Eatwell Guide - with a few references to blood sugar control thrown in for good measure. Whilst at grassroots level an increasing number of GPs and other health professionals endorse a low carb approach, why is it that the NHS as a whole continues to promote the same old discredited model? I was lucky that my health centre previously ran a very effective low carb group (until key health personnel moved on) that helped me reverse my prediabetes. Since then I have had to look online for materials and support. I was therefore delighted to come across the Freshwell Low Carb Project, set up by two Essex GPs, and would recommend the website to anyone with prediabetes or T2D. Their resources include videos, meal planners, recipe books and - best of all - the Freshwell app.

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I too went on the Healthier You programme and found it poor. When my HbAc1was retested I had only improved it by by 1 point, so I did my own reseach and followed the 12 week Newcastle Diet (I have a lot of weight to shed) and have now started following the Freshwell approach which as you say has lots of good info. In case you havent found it yet they also have the Freshwell Food Scanner App.

Hi, I have been on the ‘Oviva Healthier You’ programme for the past few months, which was sent to me via my GP practice and I have to say I have found it very informative indeed. I know it does refer to the Eatwell Programme, and I did question this, but overall the programme has benefitted me tremendously. I am eating a lot more healthily, understand more about carbohydrates etc., have lost weight and quite pleased with my progress. There’s such a lot of useful information, for me anyway. My GP advised I won’t be having my HbA1c tested for another 6-7 months.
However, I will definitely look up the Freshwell project, so thank you for sharing. Good luck.

John C 251 said:

I too went on the Healthier You programme and found it poor. When my HbAc1was retested I had only improved it by by 1 point, so I did my own reseach and followed the 12 week Newcastle Diet (I have a lot of weight to shed) and have now started following the Freshwell approach which as you say has lots of good info. In case you havent found it yet they also have the Freshwell Food Scanner App.

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Just been looking at the Freshwell Project. Wow! What a lot of good info - seems I've been more-or-less on the right lines based on my own food research , but a couple of foods that I eat on a regular basis need to go. There seems to be quite a difference between the Second Nature and Freshwell approaches. I'll have to continue with SN but will be following Freshwell's plan from now on. Thanks for the info!

Calderbloke said:

Just been looking at the Freshwell Project. Wow! What a lot of good info - seems I've been more-or-less on the right lines based on my own food research , but a couple of foods that I eat on a regular basis need to go. There seems to be quite a difference between the Second Nature and Freshwell approaches. I'll have to continue with SN but will be following Freshwell's plan from now on. Thanks for the info!

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I just had a little look - does look better but still not hugely accurate, it's claiming you exercise brings down your blood sugar (may be true for some people, wasn't for me) but then says 'and you need the sugar to exercise' - !!!

RachelG. said:

does look better but still not hugely accurate

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Yeah, I'm getting the impression that no single plan has all the answers but I'm trying to concentrate on getting the right nutritional balance of food groups and taking regular exercise (my dog helps with that). I'll no doubt end up extracting bits of a number of plans to make my own

@RachelG. - I suspect that the "you need sugar to exercise" will be one of the most robust phrases that will take the longest for people generally to have the reaction you did (which I agree with, in case I'm being too obtuse here).

It sounds like it makes sense, and I also think that for most people it's true, but only in the sense that we've (and by we, I mean people following good sounding advice) spent our whole lives teaching our bodies that this is true, and so our bodies expect it.

It's also true on a much more basic level, except that your body is perfectly capable (in most cases) of supplying as much as you need.

For what it's worth, just watched the lifestyle change part of the freshwell project, and you know, I don't find anything objectionable at all, I think it's good basic, easy to understand and easy to follow.

Is it the whole picture? not for me, but I'm totally sure that any explanation I try to give will lose 90% of any group of people that start listening - this is sound advice that will not put people off.

Susan_W said:

A friend who has just started attending group sessions on this programme told me she was advised to include snacks between meals to maintain healthy blood sugar control - the total opposite of what I understood. So I looked up the details of this programme, and sadly it seems that apart from the weighing and coaching etc, all that you get on the programme is the standard advice to base your food intake on the Eatwell Guide - with a few references to blood sugar control thrown in for good measure. Whilst at grassroots level an increasing number of GPs and other health professionals endorse a low carb approach, why is it that the NHS as a whole continues to promote the same old discredited model? I was lucky that my health centre previously ran a very effective low carb group (until key health personnel moved on) that helped me reverse my prediabetes. Since then I have had to look online for materials and support. I was therefore delighted to come across the Freshwell Low Carb Project, set up by two Essex GPs, and would recommend the website to anyone with prediabetes or T2D. Their resources include videos, meal planners, recipe books and - best of all - the Freshwell app.

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My Dad did a similar course to reduce his pre-diabetic HbA1c and they advised the group to eat "healthy" snacks between meals. He asked if it would be better not to snack at all in order to lose weight (not specifically related to sugar control) and they said "erm, well, yes, if you can!" I can't speak for the impact on sugar control (maybe there are benefits I'm not aware of, not being diabetic), but I don't see why, if you're managing not to snack between meals, you should be encouraged to do so, especially if you're trying to lose weight!

To me, snacks are unnecessary calories that your body will get used to not having if you break the habit (or better still don't develop it in the first place!). There are IMHO very few truly healthy snacks that will have any impact on hunger pangs anyway. Fruit contains sugar, nuts contain carbs, etc. They all contain calories that have to be burnt off if they're not going to add to your waistline. I just don't get it!

There is even more to it than that - as a species, we need the down time. And I say that as a constant snacker (or was...)

There needs to be a balance of eating and not-eating. During not-eating time we can burn fuel, but we can also repair. When we eat, we only store energy, and that stops all the other processes.

Nobody would say - if you must exercise all the time, make sure you do some low-impact - everyone knows that rest is as important as training.
Nobody would say - if you must stay up all night studying, make sure you use good revision technique, everyone knows that sleep is as important as being awake.

Somehow, we have forgotten that not-eating is as important as eating.

Dee_UK said:

My Dad did a similar course to reduce his pre-diabetic HbA1c and they advised the group to eat "healthy" snacks between meals. He asked if it would be better not to snack at all in order to lose weight (not specifically related to sugar control) and they said "erm, well, yes, if you can!" I can't speak for the impact on sugar control (maybe there are benefits I'm not aware of, not being diabetic), but I don't see why, if you're managing not to snack between meals, you should be encouraged to do so, especially if you're trying to lose weight!

To me, snacks are unnecessary calories that your body will get used to not having if you break the habit (or better still don't develop it in the first place!). There are IMHO very few truly healthy snacks that will have any impact on hunger pangs anyway. Fruit contains sugar, nuts contain carbs, etc. They all contain calories that have to be burnt off if they're not going to add to your waistline. I just don't get it!

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Yeah so I think this is one of the problems with that kind of one size fits all style course. For someone snacking on junk food then healthy snacks are probably a doable step in the right direction but absolutely not better than no snacking. For someone sedentary then the Freshwell advice to walk not drive is good, for someone very active then they will need different advice. Many courses and gp seem to assume someone diagnosed with diabetes will have a terrible lifestyle and launch into the low level baby steps level of advice. Very frustrating.

RachelG. said:

Yeah so I think this is one of the problems with that kind of one size fits all style course. For someone snacking on junk food then healthy snacks are probably a doable step in the right direction but absolutely not better than no snacking. For someone sedentary then the Freshwell advice to walk not drive is good, for someone very active then they will need different advice. Many courses and gp seem to assume someone diagnosed with diabetes will have a terrible lifestyle and launch into the low level baby steps level of advice. Very frustrating.

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Should I open a new thread? I came here to find others' impressions of the NHS "Healthier You" 9-month plan for prediabetics. A couple of years ago I was offered this and investigated the online version - it would have made me log everything double (i.e. I already log every possible thing but I would have had to pass this on) and even log every 200ml glass of water, which i admit I don't do. I eat healthily except when I let go with sugary snacks, which I did from December to end of February, which explains the 45 at HbA1c - last time it was 47, in between it was 42. Meanwhile I have followed Zoe Nutrition and I go to the gym for weight training on 5 machines and swim two or three times a week. I feel I can get on on my own and some things like the Eatwell Plate and all the algorithms (as in Zoe) don't work for me. So thanks to whoever recommended Freshwell.

I have now today been offered the chance to join the programme again, see bottom.

The current NHS plan has an "online gym" - presumably just some videos, of which I have many. I feel there is a big ******** factor in the following offer. As far as I remember from my earlier attempt, the journal was not a "bonus", but obligatory. I can see the sense but prefer to do things for myself rather than report to someone whose qualifications I am dubious about.

• "Flexible options with a choice of face-to-face, remote or digital support. Tailored guidance from our team of coaches, specially trained in behaviour change. Regular sessions providing support and building knowledge and skills.
• Bonus resources like articles, recipes and a journal to track your progress. Access to our online gym offering yoga, armchair aerobics, circuits and more. "

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@Zeppx - feel free to do either; you may find that you get more feedback directly relevant to your situation if you open a new thread, or you can carry on what is now quite an old conversation. Either works.

Chris24Main said:

@Zeppx - feel free to do either; you may find that you get more feedback directly relevant to your situation if you open a new thread, or you can carry on what is now quite an old conversation. Either works.

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Thanks.

Zeppx said:

Should I open a new thread? I came here to find others' impressions of the NHS "Healthier You" 9-month plan for prediabetics. A couple of years ago I was offered this and investigated the online version - it would have made me log everything double (i.e. I already log every possible thing but I would have had to pass this on) and even log every 200ml glass of water, which i admit I don't do. I eat healthily except when I let go with sugary snacks, which I did from December to end of February, which explains the 45 at HbA1c - last time it was 47, in between it was 42. Meanwhile I have followed Zoe Nutrition and I go to the gym for weight training on 5 machines and swim two or three times a week. I feel I can get on on my own and some things like the Eatwell Plate and all the algorithms (as in Zoe) don't work for me. So thanks to whoever recommended Freshwell.

I have now today been offered the chance to join the programme again, see bottom.

The current NHS plan has an "online gym" - presumably just some videos, of which I have many. I feel there is a big ******** factor in the following offer. As far as I remember from my earlier attempt, the journal was not a "bonus", but obligatory. I can see the sense but prefer to do things for myself rather than report to someone whose qualifications I am dubious about.

Click to expand...

I have now opened a new thread. I have not deleted this post, which is not identical.