No hunger for breakfast

I don't eat breakfast usually. If you're not hungry in the morning there's no need to have cream or butter in tea, unless you get Dawn Phenomenon and you want to stop your bg rising. But if you like cream or butter in your tea there's no reason why you shouldn't.

Lchf seems to reduce hunger in a lot of people. Me included.

If I'm honest needing to eat is habit. I can easily do up to 48hrs without so long as I have coffee and busy.

You could make yourself bulletproof water if you wanted. All your really doing is getting a shot of good quality easily processed dietary fat which, if fat adapted propperly will keep your body happily running along for hours.

Eat when you’re hungry and stop when you’re not.

Trust nature to tell you when to eat, not societal norms. When your appetite hasn’t been hijacked by glucose and insulin having a fist fight, your body will become very good at telling you when it needs fuel.

charlie000 said:

Would Bullet proof tea be ok? Tea with cream and butter?

Or should I eat even though I’m not hungry?

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Yes and no respectively..
If you're not hungry then don't eat.
I haven't had "breakfast" for over 3 years..

@charlie000 Dawn Phenomenon is when the liver dumps stored glucose into the bloodstream on waking, to get you going. It means fasting blood glucose level can be higher than at other times of the day.
Not everyone gets it, but is quite common and non-diabetics get it too. If someone does get DP it can be stopped by eating breakfast or some protein or fat, or 'bullet proof coffee', ie coffee with double cream or coconut oil.
I usually have coffee with double cream after getting up, and occasionally tea with full fat milk and butter.

DP is the measurable effect of insulin dysfunction in overnight fasting, not a normal occurrence in metabolically healthy people. Hormones signal the liver to secrete extra glucose in the early hours, but insulin is supposed to quickly meter this. For those with insulin problems there is a measurable rise and often a large spike. In T2 this is exacerbated by an insulin resistant liver and there can be a runaway train effect.

Could you counter Dawn Phenomenon by taking exercise first thing, such as a brisk walk? (I'm new to all this, so just asking.)

@chrestomanci Probably, I've never tried that myself. It usually takes me about an hour after getting up before I'm ready to do anything energetic. I think I've read on the forum that people have found it has helped to do something like that, whether a brisk walk or a stint on an exercise bike. But as always the best way is to test before and after to see how it has affected your bg.

I love missing breakfast, such a relief not to feel forever hungry anymore.

I find that a cup of tea with whole milk is enough to stop my DP continuing. For me exercise makes it worse as my body thinks 'Oh, she needs more energy, I'll make some more'. We are all different though so we need to experiment to see what works best for ourselves.

chrestomanci said:

Could you counter Dawn Phenomenon by taking exercise first thing, such as a brisk walk? (I'm new to all this, so just asking.)

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I get DP, and the longer I go without eating, and the more exercise I do, the higher my blood glucose rises - right up to the point where my blood glucose level drops sharply, and I feel a bit wobbly.

Basically, it is horses for courses. Some people do better with brekkie, and others don't.

I would recommend that everyone actually checks their blood glucose across several mornings before they make any decisions on whether to eat, or exercise, or not.
Test on waking. If your bg has risen overnight, that is a good sign of DP
then test once you are up and about, if your bg rises with early morning activity, that is sometimes known as 'foot on floor phenomenon'
Then test after breakfast (protein and fat breakfasts or snacks usually make my bg drop in the mornings, showing that they are countering the phenomenon, other ppl report that a few grams of carbs suit them better)

Then do the same test to see what fasting does, with or without exercise.

In my case, I wake up in the 6s, and will rise faster the more active I am. It usually goes up to 7+ with the simple action of showering and going downstairs. At that point I eat or drink something (it can be as small as a Babybel, or a couple of mouthfuls of a hot drink with cream in it). That seems to signal to my liver that it doesn't need to keep pumping out glucose, and things settle back down to the 6s within a very few minutes, and then will slowly drift downwards until I eat a proper meal, often a late lunch at 2pm.

On the other hand, if I didn't have that tiny snack, and decided to exercise, I could easily hit the 10s before it drops.

I believe, but have no way of testing this, that my DP is due to having wackier hormone dysfunction than most people, and the Libre has shown me that it is more Foot On Floor than Dawn Phenomenon. But unless we each do the necessary testing ourselves, to work out the difference, it is usually referred to as DP. There are several different hormones that work together to create Dawn Phenomenon, and insulin and insulin resistance are just two factors.

Oh, and I am never hungry for breakfast, but eating it will often give me better blood glucose control (and more hunger) through the day. Whereas others report differently.

There's something I'm not quite understanding about this. If your liver dumps a load of glucose into your bloodstream, is it not better to have it in your blood stream than in your liver (in the form of fat?)? Why do you need to eat something to stop it dumping? Why not just fast until bg is down to normal levels? I'm still struggling to understand fatty liver and insulin resistance in the liver.

zand said:

I love missing breakfast, such a relief not to feel forever hungry anymore.

I find that a cup of tea with whole milk is enough to stop my DP continuing. For me exercise makes it worse as my body thinks 'Oh, she needs more energy, I'll make some more'. We are all different though so we need to experiment to see what works best for ourselves.

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I'm learning so much in a short time... just learning about DP etc. I'm doing IF (16:8) at the mo so it's something I'll have to consider. Never been a breakfast person

zand said:

I love missing breakfast, such a relief not to feel forever hungry anymore.

I find that a cup of tea with whole milk is enough to stop my DP continuing. For me exercise makes it worse as my body thinks 'Oh, she needs more energy, I'll make some more'. We are all different though so we need to experiment to see what works best for ourselves.

Click to expand...

I also love missing breakfast!

Brunneria said:

I get DP, and the longer I go without eating, and the more exercise I do, the higher my blood glucose rises - right up to the point where my blood glucose level drops sharply, and I feel a bit wobbly.

Basically, it is horses for courses. Some people do better with brekkie, and others don't.

I would recommend that everyone actually checks their blood glucose across several mornings before they make any decisions on whether to eat, or exercise, or not.
Test on waking. If your bg has risen overnight, that is a good sign of DP
then test once you are up and about, if your bg rises with early morning activity, that is sometimes known as 'foot on floor phenomenon'
Then test after breakfast (protein and fat breakfasts or snacks usually make my bg drop in the mornings, showing that they are countering the phenomenon, other ppl report that a few grams of carbs suit them better)

Then do the same test to see what fasting does, with or without exercise.

In my case, I wake up in the 6s, and will rise faster the more active I am. It usually goes up to 7+ with the simple action of showering and going downstairs. At that point I eat or drink something (it can be as small as a Babybel, or a couple of mouthfuls of a hot drink with cream in it). That seems to signal to my liver that it doesn't need to keep pumping out glucose, and things settle back down to the 6s within a very few minutes, and then will slowly drift downwards until I eat a proper meal, often a late lunch at 2pm.

On the other hand, if I didn't have that tiny snack, and decided to exercise, I could easily hit the 10s before it drops.

I believe, but have no way of testing this, that my DP is due to having wackier hormone dysfunction than most people, and the Libre has shown me that it is more Foot On Floor than Dawn Phenomenon. But unless we each do the necessary testing ourselves, to work out the difference, it is usually referred to as DP. There are several different hormones that work together to create Dawn Phenomenon, and insulin and insulin resistance are just two factors.

Oh, and I am never hungry for breakfast, but eating it will often give me better blood glucose control (and more hunger) through the day. Whereas others report differently.

Click to expand...

Wow that's so interesting!I NEED to get a blood glucose monitor but feel overwhelmed by choices and factors at the mo. (Newly diagnosed.) Just getting used to metformin and trying to get through the day without being sick.

mariavontrapp said:

There's something I'm not quite understanding about this. If your liver dumps a load of glucose into your bloodstream, is it not better to have it in your blood stream than in your liver (in the form of fat?)? Why do you need to eat something to stop it dumping? Why not just fast until bg is down to normal levels? I'm still struggling to understand fatty liver and insulin resistance in the liver.

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I'm wondering these things too...

mariavontrapp said:

There's something I'm not quite understanding about this. If your liver dumps a load of glucose into your bloodstream, is it not better to have it in your blood stream than in your liver (in the form of fat?)? Why do you need to eat something to stop it dumping? Why not just fast until bg is down to normal levels? I'm still struggling to understand fatty liver and insulin resistance in the liver.

Click to expand...

I know, it is very confusing to start with!

Actually, energy can be stored in the liver in two ways. Think of it as keeping things in the freezer (long term storage needing time to defrost before use) or the fridge (just open the door and use it).

Fat stored in the liver is like freezer storage. In fact, it is overflow freezer storage, since fat is best stored under the skin rather than in or around organs. We want rid of excess organ fat ideally, but it is a long slow process to get rid of it, involving diet change and overall weight loss.

The short term storage in the liver is in the form of glycogen. This is basically glucose packed away in a very easy to access form that can be released into the bloodstream at a moments notice. It is glycogen that is used to release glucose when we have 'liver dumps'. These are not as unpleasant or dramatic as the name implies. In a person who is running on glucose, rather than ketones, their glycogen stores are in a constant state of flux, dumping a little if needed, then replenishing, if needed. So that there is a constant supply available for topping up glucose in the blood stream, whether it is needed because the person didn't eat for a few hours, or just had a car crash and is undergoing Fight or Flight hormone reactions. Either way, the process is the same, and glucose in the blood gets topped up. Glycogen is so quick to access that there are actually extra glycogen stores in the muscles as well as the liver, so that in an emergency, the muscle stores can respond even more quickly than the central liver storage.

For those who rely on glucose (not ketones), and who stop eating glucose, a number of processes kick in. First the blood glucose isn't being replenished by carbs in food. So the glycogen stores start to be used up. It takes several days for them to run down. This is often descripbed as 'losing water weight' at the beginning of a diet. The glucose is stored with water, so when you use up the glucose, the water is released too => rapid short term weight loss of a few pounds.

At this point, the body is, quite understandably, wanting to replenish the glycogen stores ready for the next time they are needed. The body has probably run on glucose for decades, and why shouldn't that continue? Hello carb cravings and 'keto flu'. Obviously other things are happening too. Electrolyte use changes a bit. Dehydration may be a slight problem... but behind it all, the glycogen stores are running down and the body is thinking 'huh? OK, I had better start reaching for energy from fat - oooh look! There is some in the 'freezer', or some fat arriving from food. I don't care where it comes from so long as I can use them for energy to replace that glucose'. And at that point, the body starts the process to switch towards ketosis and fat adaption.

I hope that made sense.

Ed to add:

Haha! I just remembered this link.
Here you go:
https://www.diabetes.co.uk/body/glycogen.html