Post Newcastle Diet blood glucose increase.

No answers for you just thoughts and questions
May be the higher fat diet isnt actually helping you in this case.
Have you been tested for LADA?
You could try a 5:2 type diet and see if that allows you to return to lower values
Have you changed your test strips recently. I have been running on a bit of a duff set in my meter for a while. Is always disconcerting at first.
You could try your higher carb food types and see what happens. When I have carb if get higher highs and lower lows than with low carb where the profile is flat

I've noticed my fasting levels creep up after a few days of low carb as well.

Some good (for me) carbs, and my fasting level creeps back down.
I think my body just gets out of the habit of knowing what to do if I don't use my pancreas for a day or two.

Please correct me if I have misread what you have typed. I'm wondering if keeping your ND diet as similar to normal is the possible cause? low fat yoghurt has a sugar hit, Ryvita, I wouldn't touch that with a barge pole. If you were consuming carby food on the diet while restricting yourself to very small portions and reducing calorie intake then your body has still been getting a carb hit, albeit a much lower dose. The restricted portion size and calorie intake would ensure weight loss. I could be totally wrong here, anyone please feel free to say so. If you didn't go low carb, very low carb on the ND by starving yourself of the initial problem how would your metabolism do a system re-boot?

most of the shakes are fairly high carb so that shouldn't be an issue. I posed a few questions to the OP so hopefully he will get to see them over the weekend and we can delve a little further.

@Andrew Colvin Ah, I thought the OP did it without shakes, and used real food. That's probably where I got confused

he did but the shakes have more carbs that he/she was eating

@Andrew Colvin Very good question. Does the make up of the carb also come into consideration. Sugar and wheat appears to have definitely factored into the diet. I have a personal interest in this analysis too - as I have recently conducted the same experiment using real food, mine eliminated all wheat, grain derivatives, tatties, rice etc solely done on organic low carb vegetables, meat, eggs and high fat dairy, nothing that would introduce an unnatural dose of sugar. I've also permanently eliminated Wheat & Grain from my life now. As @PerfectStorm diet period is close to my own, will my Glucose levels slowly return to normal?

Hi I think I'm in a similar position to you. I did not try the Newcastle Diet (although I read all about it and followed with interest those doing it) but lost my weight by trying to eat 500 calories a day less than I was burning. My blood sugars were dangerously high to begin with but as I lost weight they gradually came down, fasting readings mostly in the low 5's. Now I'm in the position I don't need to lose any more weight. Diagnose BMI 25 now about 20. My fasting readings have crept up to 6's. and 6.7 this morning my highest for many months. I don't seem to be spiking after meals only a rise of about 1 point, sometimes less but everything seems to be about 1 point higher than a month ago. My carbs are normally between 50 and 100 though I do seem to be able to cope with a few more now without spiking so I would be very interested in how you do. I can't see how my last HbA1c of 33 could be right as my fasting reading were only low 5's and I know on a couple of occasions I spiked to 10 in trying out increased quantities. I've spent the last 3 months trying to slow my weight loss down and now need to stop losing any more weight. I found it easier to control blood sugars while losing weight and it seems you did the same. Can we help each other in any way?

iv been low carb for 2 weeks now under 100g a day plus moderate exercise ,each day for a week readings gradually came down ,but now going up for no apparent reason I really cant see why this is apart from being stressed

Hiitsme said:

Hi I think I'm in a similar position to you. I did not try the Newcastle Diet (although I read all about it and followed with interest those doing it) but lost my weight by trying to eat 500 calories a day less than I was burning. My blood sugars were dangerously high to begin with but as I lost weight they gradually came down, fasting readings mostly in the low 5's. Now I'm in the position I don't need to lose any more weight. Diagnose BMI 25 now about 20. My fasting readings have crept up to 6's. and 6.7 this morning my highest for many months. I don't seem to be spiking after meals only a rise of about 1 point, sometimes less but everything seems to be about 1 point higher than a month ago. My carbs are normally between 50 and 100 though I do seem to be able to cope with a few more now without spiking so I would be very interested in how you do. I can't see how my last HbA1c of 33 could be right as my fasting reading were only low 5's and I know on a couple of occasions I spiked to 10 in trying out increased quantities. I've spent the last 3 months trying to slow my weight loss down and now need to stop losing any more weight. I found it easier to control blood sugars while losing weight and it seems you did the same. Can we help each other in any way?

Click to expand...

What do you feel was wrong with your HbA1c score?

Personally, my HbA1c and my finger prick meter tests aren't very close (HbA1c is an average of 0.7% higher than my finger prick tests would predict). I am assuming you understand that your HbA1c and finger prick tests use a different measuring scale?

I have tried to research why this might happen, and I do know of one other person, similarly affected by "adrift" HbA1cs, and the only commonality we can see, differentiating us from most others is our mean cell haemoglobin levels are marginally greater than the reported "normal" range. As an example, my last was 33.9 against a reporting normal of 27-32, so not massively outside of range. From the results I have available, I have never returned a score within range, and all are very similar, so that seems to be "just how I am". My GP is supremely unconcerned, and I'm not going to be losing any sleep for the time being.

AndBreathe said:

What do you feel was wrong with your HbA1c score?

Personally, my HbA1c and my finger prick meter tests aren't very close (HbA1c is an average of 0.7% higher than my finger prick tests would predict). I am assuming you understand that your HbA1c and finger prick tests use a different measuring scale?

I have tried to research why this might happen, and I do know of one other person, similarly affected by "adrift" HbA1cs, and the only commonality we can see, differentiating us from most others is our mean cell haemoglobin levels are marginally greater than the reported "normal" range. As an example, my last was 33.9 against a reporting normal of 27-32, so not massively outside of range. From the results I have available, I have never returned a score within range, and all are very similar, so that seems to be "just how I am". My GP is supremely unconcerned, and I'm not going to be losing any sleep for the time being.

Click to expand...

Only that if an average of 5.7 for a HbA1c of 33 is right then I must have been running mid 5's most of the time. I thought it would have been higher not that I'm complaining. My meter may give higher readings and I really only test to find possible spikes so don't know what my blood sugars are at other times.

I have looked through MFP to see my carb consumption during ND and I was generally around the 55g mark, although sometimes went up to 75g and occasionally down to 20/30g. Since diagnosis, apart from when on ND, my diet has been LCHF but I am not at the extreme end of low for carbs. I was eating around 30-45g carbs before ND and since finishing ND am back to similar levels.

Click to expand...

Hi @PerfectStorm I see you are a fairly low amount of carbs and could be in or close to ketosis on that level of carbs. I find when I go to the very low level of carbs then my low numbers rise and my high numbers are suppressed. I end up with the same average. It could be a simple case of rying a few more carbs and see if your fasting levels drop. If they do then you have a choice; do you low carb and have higher fastings and just accept it or do you raise your carbs to higher level of low (~100g).

Hi PerfectStorm, your story really spoke to me as I went through the same kind of thing, post real food ND.

My own way of thinking about it, and through it now, some months since (I finished the V-LCD in early March), is that Type 2 just might not be as simple as we might want it to be! The purposes of keeping it in control, or keeping it at bay. Or putting it into remission, or reversing it - however we want to talk about getting better with it or from it. I sure as hell wish it was. Simpler, that is. All those hormones, and nutrients, and cells and processes, working in with each other, and against each other, and at the base of it - our livers and pancreases, and us not really knowing, till push comes to shove, how damaged they have been, and/or how damaged they still are. Or how far we would have to go to get them healthier again? (or even if we can.)

Or, if the processes really are pretty simple, ie it's about finding one's Personal Fat Threshold, and keeping it there (due to liver fat and lack of), then the act of keeping oneself at a low PFT is not! For me, I had to get very lean to arrive at a HBA1c of 40 (not anything like the really dramatic drops in HBA1c you can see in the ND outcomes), and I found it too hard to keep it there, in that my weight and HBA1c went up without me even being very conscious of it. I take it this is not so uncommon after VLCDs, and LCDs.

For some people, doing the ND, in whatever form, kicks their bodies into post-diabetic shape, dramatically and even fairly quickly. But even after reading in here for many months,I am still not sure how many post-diabetic (to use NoCarbs4me's expression) can eat like a person who was never diagnosed in the first place, again. Considering their known tendency to develop insulin resistance. I never knew what happened to one of my forum pals, Glitterbritches, after he became post-diabetic after the ND. Sometimes we don't know what happens to these folk over time. (I often think about Glitterbritches, and wonder where he, and his blood glucose, is now. I hope he was one of the ones that had a permanent 'reboot' into non-diabetic health.)

But what does this mean for those who continue to struggle after the ND and creeping up BG? (ie evidence, lest we forget, of our liver and pancreas and all those complex processes not functioning properly.) We continue to live as diabetics, probably with very tight control. And look back on FBGs of old (like I did this morning) and glory in the fact one has come a long long way. Ie We actually really are doing great things for our health, have done great things for our health. For me, I remember when my goal was an HBA1c of 48, which looked unreachable, so even though I get disappointed when my BG floats around in the 6s all day, and my HBA1c is currently 43, this T2D, and my health, and I am, truly 'a work in progress'. (Swiping some lovely forum writer's tagline there.)

And yeah - the intermittent fasting regimes seem to work very well as continuous 'rebooters' in the weight and/or BG levels dropping sense. Ditto seeing T2D in terms of your personal level of tolerance for carbs. Raising BG? Lower the carbs.

I know it is (all) much easier said than done. But that's what we have the forum for? To help us keep on going.

I don't think Prof Taylor ever said that the diet would work for everyone. From the people I've been reading about over the past few years, quite a few get hung up on the "cure" fantasy and think they can resume eating like a non-diabetic afterwards and the result is not good. I honestly don't think it's possible except in very rare cases. I suspect some of us have permanently broken glucose control. That certainly seems to be the case for me. If I eat more than 25g of carbs in a meal, I know I'll go above my target of 7.8. I'm learning to accept that as my default setting, probably for the rest of my life.

Intermittent fasting has been the only thing to stop my dawn phenomenon and normalise my fasting BG, so I'm happy to continue with it. But post prandial responses haven't changed despite weight loss.

PerfectStorm said:

Hi @Andrew Colvin . I am generally only touching on ketosis with the level of carbs I am eating. When I use the urine test strips, it generally shows as traces. I don't think I can increase my carbs as I soon get post meal readings outside the target range.

My FBGs seem to have come down a little over the last few days - back into high 5s, although still rising to low 6 pre-breakfast.

Any ideas on why the ND doesn't seem to have worked properly for me? Despite my BMI being down to 24, I do still have abdominal fat - is that likely to be the reason? Not sure how to get rid of it as spot reduction of fat is impossible, isn't it?

My weight is staying stable with my diet at present but I wonder whether doing a bit more of ND may help to get rid of it and perhaps take me below my personal fat threshold. Or I wonder whether I am one of the unlucky ones for whom my PFT is beyond reach because I was only overweight and not obese at the time of diagnosis.

Click to expand...

To be honest, at a BMI of 24, with remaining abdominal fat, I would try losing further weight. That you did x days/weeks on the ND isn't a tick box exercise to success. The personal nature of the threshold is indeed frustrating.

In your shoes, I would look to drop some further weight, by whatever means you choose. Professor Taylor is clear that the weight loss is the key, not the method or rapidity of that loss.

Bearing in mind you are back to eating real food (forgive me if this was your chosen ND variant anyway), it might be interesting to continue with proper food, but with a view to loss.

I never did the ND. I reduced carb then only added fat back when I got very close to target. In terms of my weight loss related body changes, I got slimmer and slimmer, but retained a column shape until I was quite slim, then what seemed like suddenly, I had and still have a properly slim wait.

I have no idea where my personal fat threshold is/was but I have a feeling it's pretty low, so I really have to stay a very slight old bird.

Good luck with it all.

This is my first post so please excuse me if this thread is now finished. I was very interested to hear about FBG increasing following a 'deviated' Newcastle Diet as this also happened to me. In June I used real food but remained about 800kcal per day for the 8 weeks, lost 18llbs and FBG (eventually) went down from 7's and 8's to below 5 - but only in week 6. I went on LCHF after that eating under 1500kcal and lost a further 7 llbs over the last 9 weeks but my FBG increased almost immediately to 6's and 7's. I eat less than 50g carbs usually from nuts.
So I researched Roy Taylor's change in what he had originally said in his first paper : he said it was the 'sudden and profound' decrease in calorific intake that he believed mimicked the diet before weight loss surgery - and it was this 'shock' that caused the patients to have such good FBG reading by the end of week 1.
I wonder if for type 2 diabetics who already eating a reasonable diet of 1000 to 2500 we need to go on a more restricted starvation diet of maybe 500kcal!! In order to mimic the sudden and profound deficit. [Either that or eat cookies for the month before!!! only kidding].