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Protein content of diet

CherryAA

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,170
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
On the one hand I have Dr Ted Naimann who appears to be both, fit, cute and intelligent with an amazing 6 pack - suggesting that I should be eating 1- 1.5 g of proteins per lb of ideal weight so 150 lbs = 150 -225 g per day or 900 calories ( of my precious 1250)

On the other I have Dr Jason Fung who is equally fit, cute and intelligent-(though his 6 pack has not been revealed to the world yet ) suggesting that actually I only NEED 0.6 g per kilo ie 41g plus say 20% for luck = say 50kg per day. or 200 calories of proteins. He tells me that this should result in my own body eating its own spare flesh (which would be handy if somewhat gruesome ) and when I eat a lot of proteins I am opening myself up to letting cancer grow.

Using Dr Fung's figures I can happily fit it all into a VLC diet (If I'm ever up to it) with calories to spare.

Somewhere in the middle is everyone else in the anti-carb camp.

In my head I rationalise this by saying Dr Naimann is clearly a fitness junky dearly beloved by all those lucky enough to have escaped the blight of diabetes and who are concentrating instead on living to be a 1,000 surrounded by a coterie of admirers so if my goal is to be one of those , then I should probably follow his thoughts . It is my goal to be one of those - just not quite yet.

Dr Fung is into making people smaller - and less diabetic so as I want to lose weight and be less diabetic now - I should follow him -

If I ever get to the point where my new fat free body now requires sculpting and a six pack, then I should up my proteins, start swinging weights and doing that rather complicated maneouvre Dr Naimann does where I stick one leg in the air whilst balancing on a book with the other one, holding a kettle bell at full length and sinking gracefully towards the floor before rising like a ballerina onto my tiptoes .

In the meantime I need to make sure I don't eat too much of anything in particular carbs and to a lesser extent proteins and that I don't fall over too often in my somewhat inadequate attempts at improving fitness.

Has anyone else come up with a protein goal? and if so what is it and how did you get there?
 
My goal as an aging woman is to avoid sarcopenia and/or cachexia at all costs, so I go for higher protein. I have no interest in living to 90+, especially not if it means being frail and unable to care for myself. I don't care what I look like, but I do care that my muscles are strong enough to allow me to get back up from a possible fall. I know too many women my age and older who find that task impossible. I'm not swinging kettlebells, but I can do full body squats/return to standing without falling over
 
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The "Weight by Date" software I use suggests a lower amount of protein (60gms) than the RDA figure I Googled at 100 gms. I use the software to keep a food diary, not 100% of the time, but often enough.

CherryAA said:
On the one hand I have Dr Ted Naimann
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130 kgs = 288 lbs, so 288 gms - 432 gms. Looking through my food diaries, I've never done that, nowhere near. I'd probably find it difficult to achieve as well.

CherryAA said:
On the other I have Dr Jason Fung
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130 kgs, so 78 gms of protein, much closer to what I have usually consumed over the years I've kept a food diary.

CherryAA said:
Has anyone else come up with a protein goal? and if so what is it and how did you get there?
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Looking at 4 suggestions (Naimann/Fung/WbD software/Google), it looks like I've accidentally complied with Jason, give or take a few grams.

I think we're all so different it's difficult to come up with a sensible answer. I've only just starting looking carefully at protein after my BG which, after 4 years of behaving on low carb, started going bonkers. I certainly saw much more reasonable BG levels by having low carb and low protein and introducing protein again has caused BG to go insanely unpredictable again.

Today, I'm cutting right back on protein again, I'm having my bloods done next week and I can see my GP wanting to add to my medication. My concern is that something like Gliclazide just makes the pancreas produce more insulin which isn't what I really want when I can get my BG down by starving. LOL Or should I say, staying low carb and cutting back on protein. At least my GP has allowed me to try different things since my end of 2016 HbA1c was so bad.
 
Thanks all for the responses. I don't think I've ever got close to Dr Naimann's recommendations either whereas Dr Fung's do seem entirely achievable. I had a brief optimistic moment last night when I had a vision that Marilyn Monroe would suddenly be staring at me in the mirror if only I ate an entire side of beef daily for a couple of months.
In the cold light of morning I think maybe a poached egg is sufficient ! - oh well....
 

I definitely want to avoid sarcopenia and cachexia and indeed anything else I have never heard of as well as a few things I have! ( yet more things to look up - you people keep me far too busy !)

Is it still a full body squat I meant even if only on the one leg? it sounds like it should have a much more impressive title.

when you say "more protein" what kind of levels do you mean?
 

But is 130kg your "ideal" weight?.. All the numbers I have seen are based on Lean Body Mass rather than weight at the moment. The keto guys tend to aim for 1g of protein per 1kg of LBM.
 
Well, if I ever lose weight (it is looking doubtful) the last think I want is bingo wings like a flying squirrel and a tummy like a deflated water balloon. Nor do I want my uber helpful body to distract itself from keto by gluconeogenesis.

So for LC weight loss I try and aim for Fung's protein quantities. Usually hit somewhere a little above, but Intermittent Fasting makes it very easy to drop large %s of protein.

Interestingly, when I do this, my body and my appetite sometimes ask for a little extra protein (usually with Henry VIII style banquet fantasies complete with entire haunches of venison), so I top up with a higher protein meal now and then, because I figure that protein is something wired much deeper into us than modern processed carbs, and our bodies have a much better self regulation/self monitoring of requirements, with protein.

Also, since one set of blood tests about 18 months ago where they found albumin in my urine, I have been avoiding the larger protein intake. I used to enjoy steaks more often, but am now a little wary of single large protein intakes, and would prefer to spread them across the day and week, as a kindness to my kidneys.
 
I don't actually have a goal in grams for protein, though I do track it along with carbs. Intake varies quite a bit, but probably average 80-110 grams per day. I weigh around 67kgs, so more than 1g per kg of body weight most days. I try to make protein the focus of every meal with a minimum of 30grams per meal (as per Dr Donald Layman's recommendation for adults).

Probably not using the actual term for the type of squat I do - nothing as fancy as one leg - I squat til butt touches heels then back up again, sometimes I stay down for a minute or so before getting back up, not using hands for balance, just leg strength. Pretty sure I'd go "splat" if I tried single leg squat. I've seen it called "Grok/Paleo squatting" or "third world squatting". A normal movement in just about every culture except Western.

I have an 86 year old neighbour who has fallen a few times in the past year - nothing broken, but she cannot get herself up off the ground. Twice I've had to go and get another neighbour to help get her up again. It's a real worry for the elderly, especially if you live alone. I reckon functional movement gets more important the older you become.
 
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bulkbiker said:
But is 130kg your "ideal" weight?
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Good grief NO! I'd missed the word "ideal". I thought it sounded like a lot. You might have noticed that my attention to detail isn't great and I'm bonkers enough to think that 17 years of taking statins have something to do with it. On the other hand, the codeine I'm taking because of muscular spasms in the back can't be helping.

Does anybody know how to do something as simple as walking without the back going into spasm? Sorry, that's another topic entirely. I'm off to see my Nutritional Therapist before she does the "900 miles in 9 days" bike ride for cancer charities. We have some test results to discuss.
 
I'm with @Indy51 on this, being an ageing female. Protein is essential. Every cell in our body needs it for repair, building and maintenance. I don't need to lose weight, so that knocks that out of the equation. My kidney function is normal, my eGFR is above 90, my urine albumin/creatinine ratio is 0.2 and albumin is negligible. (less than 1mg/l) I have no intention of losing muscle mass and strength if I can avoid it, and I intend to continue being someone that heals well, recovers quickly from injury and surgery, and can get up when I fall. As for blood sugars, if it does affect me it is by an insignificant amount.

I haven't tracked my food for over 2 years (I still keep a diary but don't calculate amounts of anything these days) My last few detailed entries 2 years ago had me somewhere around the 100g mark. (I am about 57kg or 126lbs.) I eat a lot of fish especially salmon, lean chicken breast, lean beef.

If my kidneys start to go doolally I will have to reconsider.
 
From recent findings it would seem our stone age ancestors used to feast on lots and lots of pork (protein) and for exorcise carry around blocks of stone weighing several tons mind you I don't know what their incidence of diabetes was and I am sure their average life span was a lot shorter than we have today.

Oh and they did a lot of walking, not much choice really.
 
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I stick pretty close to the .8g per kg. I as well don't need to lose weight however I did have albumin in my urine at DX but nothing was right then.
A year later I had two very large kidney stones blown up and I know I had two smaller ones remaining in my other kidney. Knocking on wood so far so good.

The way I look at protein, and I could be completely wrong, is that if over a certain amount eaten at one meal spikes my bs then the amino acids have no where to go and my glycogen stores are most likely full. I eat small amounts of protein 4-5 times a day ( 4 small meals and a cheese snack). If I eat too much protein in a day then my bs is messed for a few days following.

I am the same weight and size I have been for many many years. I used to eat loads more protein when I was younger. I just make sure the protein I do eat now is very high quality. Quality over quantity for me.
 

Have a look at that link that @Indy51 posted from the tuit blog. It explains why bg rises after protein - and it isn't the reason most people assume.

My objection to large amounts of protein and gluconeogenesis isn't about the blood glucose levels. It is because I don't want my over-helpful body building up its glycogen reserves again, when I work so hard (most of the time) to keep that particular tank nice and low.
 
I guess I knew most of that but a good refresher. I didn't see a recommended amount. Did I miss it?

I too like to keep my glycogen stores close to empty. I suppose I could probably eat more protein but I would heave to split boluses. I already jab enough and for now everything seems to be staying the same. But we all know eventually that will change too.
I just think in general I don't need lots of calories from anything. It bogs me down. I run better on snacking even if it's not the 'best', it's how my body functions best.

I have in the past added more protein and boluses accordingly. Bs stays good for about 3 days then fasting and all other tests after are higher. Cut back down and 3 days later all is well again. Protein has a very profound effect on me.
 
DavidGrahamJones said:
Does anybody know how to do something as simple as walking without the back going into spasm? Sorry, that's another topic entirely.
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Have you injured your back, maybe a long time ago? I hurt my back lifting something and twisting at the same time, it took about 6 months to get better. Several years later I developed muscle spasms when doing something as simple as stepping off a kerb, it was painful but also frightening, it felt like my legs might collapse. The doctor said it could be a learned response in my back muscles from the old injury and prescribed a course of muscle relaxants. Magically, after 2 days of the tablets, it went away never to return.
 
Mr_Pot said:
Have you injured your back, maybe a long time ago?
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I had a lot of back trouble 45 years ago then no trouble until about 4 years ago. I'm not aware of doing anything in particular but several trips from High Wycombe to Plymouth won't have helped. Neither did the stays in hospital, lying in bed was so painful I was close to tears and the sciatica after my right TKR was indescribable. The chiropractor helped a lot after that and I've been visiting her and a reflexologist for a long time and it does help a lot. Trouble is I can't sit on my backside for too long without thinking I should be doing something that needs doing. I also like to get out and play golf and I expect if I could hit the ball EVERY time, instead of 90% of the time, I'd be better off, might even score more and improve my handicap although I only play for the fun of it, nowhere near as serious as my wife. I certainly don't get upset if we're rained off.
Mr_Pot said:
The doctor said it could be a learned response in my back muscles from the old injury and prescribed a course of muscle relaxants.
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Almost certainly at the root of it, your body compensates when you have arthritic knees and it's not always easy to unlearn what your body has been doing as a coping mechanism. I certainly waddled a lot before my knees were replaced and sometimes I get quite angry when I think of all the people being told they're too young for replacements like I was. I went private in the end, sadly not everyone has that luxury and that makes me angry.
The weight doesn't help and to date, nobody knows how I manage on such low amounts of food calorie wise. I have to get down to 600 - 800 to guarantee losing anything. Saw my Nutritional Therapist today and everything looks OK except I don't have a wide coverage of bacteria in my gut, but what's there is good. All the hormones are good including testosterone although I have elevated levels of estrogen, I knew I was in touch with my feminine side. LOL Seems I also have low amounts of something or the other which is present in much higher levels in men with prostate problems, hopefully a good sign for me.
I had Oramorph in hospital, brilliant, I can see how people get addicted. Best pain killer ever.
 
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