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Reversing Type 2 diabetes

Another angle to consider is that some may be more affected by endotoxin
High Fat Intake Leads to Acute Postprandial Exposure to Circulating Endotoxin in Type 2 Diabetic Subjects
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/35/2/375

 

Hi Zand. This is the main reason I am transitioning over to this. Not without doing lots of research first, mind, watching loads of videos, etc., as I was caught in the LCHF trap of thinking we need heaps of protein and fats just to exist...!

Over the last few months I was finding it increasingly difficult to digest animal protein and was actually forced to go vegan for a bit in order to survive, but I was still eating a fair amount of fat so was still having to limit the carb. Dumping the fat seems to be making a big difference. I had recently got to the stage of having a very dry 'cotton mouth', gum recession, hair loss, and nothing I did would stop it. I have felt very toxic. It felt as if my body had reached some kind of limit. Something had to change.....
 
AliB said:
That is true, however I do feel that if you have a meter, testing for DP can be a good indicator. If your BG is generally higher in the morning than the night before then IR is a distinct likelihood
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True, but I can't even use DP as an indicator. My morning fasting has never been high, even on diagnosis. Mid 5s mostly, flattish all night and if I am a bit higher at bedtime, I drop back by morning. The only time I see a morning rise is if I go to bed on 4s. Then I end up back in low 5s. This could be my basal insulin doing its job and my body preferring 5s to 4s. This has all been confirmed with Freestyle Libres. Likewise, my pre meals have never been high, since soon after diagnosis. My issue is with evening post meal elongated rises not returning to base for 3 hours, sometimes 4. I put that down to fat keeping spikes lower but longer, and the fact I am a sloth in the evenings. That may have something (or nothing) to do with it.

The only certainty in this condition is that it is a mystery.
 
AliB said:
That is true, however I do feel that if you have a meter, testing for DP can be a good indicator. If your BG is generally higher in the morning than the night before then IR is a distinct likelihood
Click to expand...
No I do not think you can make this connection. DP is a natural reaction by the body in response to a lower than expected bgl level, and is a self preservation / survival mechanism that is automatic. It is not IMO a marker for IR
 
I would like my fasting BGs to be lower - ie in the 4s not the 5s or 6s so I reckon I'll give this a go.
 
My DP is far more linked to sleep quality, stress (have I got a busy morning ahead?), and background stress levels, than it is to do with my eating habits.

In contrast, I have devised a purely personal and anecdotal way of assessing my current IR levels - based on what happens with sustained exercise and 'baseline' blood glucose (i.e. the lowest readings I get during that exercise and before my evening meal) compared with my 'baseline' readings at other times (i.e. the lowest readings I get when sedentary, and at other times of the day).

The problem I see with any of us making observations on our own IR is that there are too many factors. It is hard enough to guesstimate IR at the best of times, but then to assess the impact of fats, proteins and carbs, plus exercise, medication, liver dumps, stress levels, variations due to time of day... there are just too many variables, and they all interact.
 
OK I think I am beginning to get a handle on this IR thingy. I have searched the WFPB videos and blogs for scientific backing, but it still seems lacking. However, Dr Greger did talk about Intramyocellular lipids. I think that one thing that makes the WFPB diet different from other vegan diets is the ultra low fat aspect, it seems to be as a result of recent research into intramyocellular triglycerides (imcTG) which forms a backbone to the claims being made for reversal.

imcTG is actually a fancy way if saying fat stored in the muscle cell for future use. When we exercise, the muscle cell takes free fatty acids )FFA) direct from the blood LDL and burns it for energy. When we stop exercise and rest the FFA gets stored into the TG in readiness for the next workout. So far so good.

Now there are 2 schools of thought: One is that IR causes the fat stores to fill up, and the other is that due to problems the TG builds up and stops the glucose from getting into the cell, hence leading directly to being the cause of IR in muscles. Either way the glucose pathway is impaired.

It was noted using the MRS scans that the imcTG grew too big under certain conditions, In normal people, when there was a high fat intake leading to excess FFA in the blood. In obese people, though not necessarily diabetic. In T2D but not necessarily obese. In others suffering Metabolic Syndrome,

In my opinion, if IR is stopping glucose being burnt in the cell, then normal activity (not necessarily exercise) will tend to burn up the local imcTG store pretty quickly, so the IR should clear itself naturally. Thus the hypothesis that IR comes first and causes excess fat storage does not follow, except when there is an excess of FFA due to a high fat diet. So I am tending to side with the egg, not the chicken, Ergo, restricting the FFA content severely is a way to reduce IR.

So strict restriction of fat intake is one way as promoted by WFPB, and other ultra low fat diets.
What about LCHF?

Well if you take the HF too literally, then, yes the diet will have high FFA;s so will not in itself clear Muscle IR. If you use fat sensibly in moderation then don’t go ketogenic, then that too will not reduce IR, and will tend to make it worse, But if you do go keto fully then there is a chance of doing the business. I think this may explain why some cannot get LCHF to work properly. It also explains why Intermittent Fasting seems to work since that too is a way of reducing the FFA in the blood. So LCHF in keto + fasting is a way forward, as it seems is WFPB, (but I cannot yet explain why bgl drops on a high carb intake Low GL?)

End of my hypothesis
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1971250/
 
My diet for the last 4 years or so has been about 80% fat by calories (all animal fats for the last 2 years) and no fasting.

Yet, my insulin resistance level seems very low based on a recent two week test of eating lots of carbs with a freestyle libre sensor running.

However, it does seem that a near zero fat/mostly carbs diet seems to work as well for reversing insulin resistance. I just doubt it's a healthy way to eat in the long term.
 
Thanks @Oldvatr I think I understand (maybe) . I am going back to my initial way of dealing with T2 as from now. High carb, all plant based, but this time I will add just a small amount of fat so that I don't get terrible pains in my bones after a few weeks. I just need to decide on which fat and how much. I am desperate to lose weight before my review in November.
 
kokhongw said:
Another angle to consider is that some may be more affected by endotoxin
High Fat Intake Leads to Acute Postprandial Exposure to Circulating Endotoxin in Type 2 Diabetic Subjects
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/35/2/375
Click to expand...
It seems that contaminants from industial processes involved in the food industry can leak through and give false results. It is possible that the experimental procedure involved in the high fat preparation may be affecting results. It may be a test method problem. If it is not so, then it would seem that people who are T2D or IGT have significant risk of geting septic shock (that kills readily) from a high fat diet causing meningitis or similar bacterial type infection, I am not aware of anyone reporting such events associated specifically with T2D or IGT patients, Not sure what the conclusion is that we can draw from this paper. It may show that bacteria in the gut is being stressed by a high fat diet more than in normal population, The other thing to consider is that the bacteria often create mimics to act as camoflage to fool our immune systems, so may actually be harmless.

@kokhongw Edit to add: I have re-read this study, and I think the use of the word endotoxins is misleading. Firstly gram negative bacteria are everywhere. They are called this because the standard lab test Gram Staining, does not detect them, hence the negative label. The endotoxins referred to in this study seem to be the left over skins of dead bacteria, so it seems the high fat is triggering our immune system which attacks some nasty bugs that are already in our body, so may actually be doing us a favour. What they are measuring by this study is the body count after a major battle against bacterial microbes in our gut

Gram-negative bacteria species include the Helicobacter Pylori, Legionella, and gonorrhoea viruses

I will continue to imbibe high fat until proven wrong.

@DCUKMod Can we extract this post from this thread and attach it to my new thread in General Discussions entitled Should We fear Lectins? so as to reduce this off topic conversation?
 
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Do you like a sprinkling of flax seeds? Dr Greger suggests eating a small amount of fat with veg to get the most from fat soluble vitamins. Nuts, seeds, olives, avocado.
 
Hmm I don't think I'll be limiting the avocado straight off, but I'll reassess later. Thanks for the tips. Pity I've just started to enjoy goat's cheese lol. Not having eggs won't be a problem Never did like them
 
bulkbiker said:
And to think some people describe LCHF as "restrictive"..
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Watch Out Watch Out there's a Lectin about and its out to make us sick.

While researching WFPB I found this research reported in the Telegraph that affects those on a vegetarian diet, (including WFPB)
http://gundrymd.com/reduce-lectins-diet/

Things could get even more restrictive.

I think this also ties in with the post about circulating endotoxins that I commented on earlier. That too was rogue proteins of the sugar loving kind - this may be a connection and another reason why WFPB should be ultra low fat.

Bon Appetit.
 
kokhongw said:
Another angle to consider is that some may be more affected by endotoxin
High Fat Intake Leads to Acute Postprandial Exposure to Circulating Endotoxin in Type 2 Diabetic Subjects
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/35/2/375
Click to expand...
OK got some info on this that you might find interesting (or amusing)
https://selfhacked.com/blog/dr-gund...ctin-avoidance-diet/#Plant-Based_Lectin_Diets

OK I admit it, When I started on this saga, I thought Dr Gundy and his Lectins was close to quackery, but having looked at the research, I am taking a different frame of mind, After all, ricin is classed as a lectin, and it kills people. Belladonna is another. Peanuts can kill, Red kidney beans need to be pressure cooked to make them edible and safe, Even the eyes on potatoes are poisonous and need to be removed. So this is not pie in the sky. My grandparents knew these dangers just didn't have a name for it, Victorian poisoners knew it. Secret service agents knew it.
 
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Don't have the brainpower to even look at all the links in this thread, and the video ones are wasted on me as I don't have speakers that work. I will read/watch when I and the PC feel better. Thanks for all the links.
 
The main reason I want to urgently improve my insulin resistance is because of its role in not only diabetes but cancer too. I am the first T2 in my family. However my mother and 4 of her sisters and also their mother struggled with their weight. I believe they were insulin resistant. They all died of cancer.
 
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