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Sick day rules/ % how how much extra insulin to take when you have ketones?

AlexandraMarnie89

Well-Known Member
Messages
98
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Pump
Can anyone help me out on the percentage of extra insulin you're supposed to take when you have ketones? NHS direct are pretty useless and I've ( completely unexplained) shot up to bg of 33.7 so checked for ketones and showing 4.3 :( feeling pretty lousy atm and really don't fancy another hospital admission for DKA so need to try and get on top of it in the next few hours
 
Wow, have you already done a correction for that, usually (i think) normal correction +20% as a starting point, and plenty water. If you've already done a correction and not coming down or ketones lowering, get to a and e sharpdish, if you hasn't got someone to take you, phone out of hours doc.

Type 1, pumping nova rapid
 
Is that +20% basal or just bolus? I'm assuming I would need to increase both? I've done a bolus based on what bg meter told me to do, but I know from having dka in past that it's not usually enough. Need to try and get it down cos I have no one to have my little man if I had to go to a&e and I don't trust out of hours docs - last week when I was hypo-ing badly at work, they wanted me to disconnect my pump and have no insulting for 36 hours!
 
Pump and not particularly ill, just the usual horrible feeling of being high and a bit of abdo pain
 
If it was me, would really go to a and e, yes, they would disconnect you from pump for dka, but would put you an a sliding scale, insulin, and glucose mix to get rid of the acids in the blood, and bring down levels gradually and safely. Start of abdomin pain is one of the signs to seek medical attention.
But, if you have a back up insulin pen, would do a correction +20% with that and change all tubing on pump, and put on a temp basal with an extra 20%. Set minimum 2 hourly alarms to recheck sugar levels and ketone levels.

Sent from the Diabetes Forum App
 
I know and I usually would go but can't get hold of anyone to take little one so think I'll give it a few hours and if it hasn't come down at all then I'll have to go.

I have insulin pens so will try that. - didn't actually consider possibly needing to change tubing as I only did it this afternoon but will change it again. Not too sure how to do a temp basal for an increase, only know how to do it for decreasing so will set up a new program and switch to that. Will check every hour
 
hope it works, and you feel better soon, make sure theres no bubbles in tubing, especially if your this high unexpectedly. Would change cannula also, and prime that also if needed.

Sent from the Diabetes Forum App
 
Thanks - have changed everything, primed and moved sides with my site.

Just re-checked; bg 32.1 ketones 4 so have taken another correction dose
 
Keep re checking, but carefull to not stack the insulin, remember each bolus lasts 4 ish hours, peaking at 2ish hours. Stay safe

Sent from the Diabetes Forum App
 
The DAFNE protocol for high ketones is to inject an extra 20% of your Total Daily Dose (TDD). 10% for mild or medium ketones. Repeat every 2 hours until ketones are gone. If you are unable to hold down fluids, call an ambulance or get to Accident and Emergency.
 
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DAFNE Sick day rules

During illness, never stop taking your insulin. Your body is likely to become more insulin resistant during illness, so you need to monitor bg closely and may need more insulin.

Dafne uses two categories of illness: minor, where blood glucose levels are not too elevated and ketones don’t appear as more than a trace, and severe, where bg levels are over 13 or ketones are present.

For both types of illness, Dafne stresses the importance of testing bg and ketones.

Minor

If bg is less than 8mmol/l and ketones are negative
Maintain usual ratios of bolus insulin.
Maintain usual basal doses
Monitor 4-6 hourly.
(If you are not eating, you may only need the basal insulin.)

If bg is more than 8mmol/l and ketones are negative or trace
Maintain usual ratios of bolus insulin.
Add corrective doses of bolus.
Increase basal doses by 1-2 units (20 per cent)
Monitor 4-6 hourly.
(If you are not eating, you may still need corrective bolus insulin.)

If bg is more than 13mmol/l and ketones are more than tracefollow the “severe illness” rules.

Severe

If bg is 10-13mmol/l and ketones are “small” or “moderate”
Calculate the total insulin (basal and bolus) in the previous 24 hours, calculate 10 per cent of that.
Bolus: take take equivalent of 10 per cent of that daily total every 2 hours
Plus normal bolus ratio for anything you eat.
Maintain usual basal doses
Monitor bg and ketones 2 hourly.
Have 100ml of sugar-free liquids per hour.

When bg drops below 10mmol/l AND ketones are negative or trace:
Eat/drink 10-20g carb
Use normal bolus ratios
Use normal basal dose.
Monitor bg and ketones 2-4 hourly.

If bg is over 13mmol/l and ketones are “moderate” or “large”
Calculate the total insulin (basal and bolus) in the previous 24 hours, calculate 20 per cent of that.
Bolus: take equivalent of 20 per cent of that daily total every 2 hours
Plus normal bolus ratio for anything you eat.
Maintain usual basal doses
Monitor bg and ketones 2 hourly.
Have 100ml of sugar-free liquids per hour.

When bg drops below 10mmol/l AND ketones are negative or trace:
Eat/drink 10-20g carb
Use normal bolus ratios
Use normal basal dose.
Monitor bg and ketones 2-4 hourly.

General notes:

During illness, if you are vomiting you don’t need to eat until you feel well enough to do so, but try to keep sipping fluids.

If you continue to vomit, cannot keep fluids down and/or cannot reduce your blood glucose or ketone levels (or if you are unsure what to do) call your GP, diabetes team or hospital as an emergency.
 
Do you get meters purely for ketone testing?


Sent from the Diabetes Forum App
There are at least two meters, the Glucomen LX and one of the Optiums, that can accept a ketone strip for blood ketone testing. These give a number as a result instead of a colour result like a urine ketone strip.
 
Can anyone help me out on the percentage of extra insulin you're supposed to take when you have ketones? NHS direct are pretty useless and I've ( completely unexplained) shot up to bg of 33.7 so checked for ketones and showing 4.3 :( feeling pretty lousy atm and really don't fancy another hospital admission for DKA so need to try and get on top of it in the next few hours


Alexandra you are in the higher category of the Severe protocol, so you need to do this:

T1 Sick day rules

Severe

If bg is over 13mmol/l and ketones are “moderate” or “large”
Calculate the total insulin (basal and bolus) in the previous 24 hours, calculate 20 per cent of that.
Bolus: take equivalent of 20 per cent of that daily total every 2 hours
Plus normal bolus ratio for anything you eat.
Maintain usual basal doses
Monitor bg and ketones 2 hourly.
Have 100ml of sugar-free liquids per hour.

When bg drops below 10mmol/l AND ketones are negative or trace:
Eat/drink 10-20g carb
Use normal bolus ratios
Use normal basal dose.
Monitor bg and ketones 2-4 hourly.

General notes:

During illness, if you are vomiting you don’t need to eat until you feel well enough to do so, but try to keep sipping fluids.

If you continue to vomit, cannot keep fluids down and/or cannot reduce your blood glucose or ketone levels (or if you are unsure what to do) call your GP, diabetes team or hospital as an emergency.
 
Alexandra, as you are new to the pump, these readings are fairly high, and you are in sole charge of a little one I would strongly suggest you go back to pen injections for a day or two until you can find a baby sitter and get with your diabetic specialist nurse to figure out what went wrong with the pump. If you take a normal pen injected dose of basal insulin and disconnect your pump you will be sure that your basal insulin is working. Same with the sickness protocol doses, if you use a pen injection you can be sure they are working.

If you don't see ketones and BG starting to fall within the next 2 to 4 hours you really need to discontinue the pump for now and switch back to pen injections until you have support.

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