so annoyed

Its understandable really when your told by a HCP whats right and wrong, i think its criminal they can give this advice to people effectively killing them, but not your friends fault, be mad with the dn not your friend, remember they will still be going through a mixture of emotions, id take it slowly and eventually bring them round to your way of thinking if you can, best of luck

Hi Cath,

It is very difficult for someone to listen to a lay person if they believe what their HCP is telling them.
This ebook might help if you print it off and give him a copy.

http://scottsdiabetes.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/freetiger.pdf


You could also print off the advice that Daisy gives for the newly diagnosed.

I know it makes you angry but I don't know how you are going to get him to change his views.
Would he be willing to join this forum?

This is the proifile of the author of the e-book.

https://www.blogger.com/profile/15197026386308369016

I had a phone call at home at the weekend from my doctor, who told me to basically stop eating, and stop drinking alcohol. Nicities of what I could eat came later. I wasn't overly high though.

Maybe some dn get set in T1 mode, or maybe they see patient after patient who won't make any drastic changes. Weaning them down from two sugars to one, then a half , and from four donuts to 3 oranges is a start, if it gets your bs down from 20+ to 10 though.

They may also just know what they're doing.

There can be complications from bringing down bs rapidly.

Without knowing the bs at dn, it's hard to know the best route, but slowly is better if in doubt.

To quote a famous low carber. re a low carb diet.

"Warning if you have been holding very high blood glucose numbers, reduce your BG numbers and bring them down slowly over weeks or even months. This diet can reduce BG numbers from the twenties to non diabetic in days for some diabetics. This can cause serious eye damage that cannot be repaired. Remember this is not a race, take a little time to get it right. Also, if you are using powerful medication and a high carb diet, and reducing carbs drastically, quickly, your medication must be adjusted accordingly or serious hypo’s could occur. You must test, test and keep on testing until carb intake and med adjustment has levelled out."

Hi Cath
Yes it is very frustrating when people refuse to listen As I am writing this I see you are getting some good advise from others but I started so I will finish .
This is something that really gets to me to, on so many levels, I get so frustrated that I am trying to start a support group in my area. The only thing I can suggest is the same as I think the others will, Give him time, try to point him to this site, and other material that tell the real story. Forget about the "professional" that gave such bad advice, this will only cloud your thinking. your fight is not with them, dont try to disrespect them, Build your friend up. I will leave it now as I can see you are getting multiple replies

i spend a lot of time meeting people in the second half of their life as what we make is expensive so it tends to be older peoples houses we are in a lot, therefore there are a surprising amount of people that have DB, it normally comes up when the tea and biscuits are passed around and i say i can't but thank you, then a conversations starts and the amount of people i meet that just don't have the first clue about their DB is staggering, the really annoying thing is when i explain to them, that they can avoid the horrible things happening to them by a change in lifestyle and diet, they say oh no i couldn't give up my roast potatoes, and the Doctor said it was ok for me to eat chocolate etc etc, they completely dismiss what I've said, then go on to tell me about their eye operation and the pain in their feet, its very frustrating when you know whats best for someone else and they won't listen to reason, so i write down the address of the forum and leave them to it, we have to try but not much we can do other than point the horse towards the water

douglas99 said:

I had a phone call at home at the weekend from my doctor, who told me to basically stop eating, and stop drinking alcohol. Nicities of what I could eat came later. I wasn't overly high though.

Maybe some dn get set in T1 mode, or maybe they see patient after patient who won't make any drastic changes. Weaning them down from two sugars to one, then a half , and from four donuts to 3 oranges is a start, if it gets your bs down from 20+ to 10 though.

They may also just know what they're doing.

There can be complications from bringing down bs rapidly.

Without knowing the bs at dn, it's hard to know the best route, but slowly is better if in doubt.

To quote a famous low carber. re a low carb diet.

"Warning if you have been holding very high blood glucose numbers, reduce your BG numbers and bring them down slowly over weeks or even months. This diet can reduce BG numbers from the twenties to non diabetic in days for some diabetics. This can cause serious eye damage that cannot be repaired. Remember this is not a race, take a little time to get it right. Also, if you are using powerful medication and a high carb diet, and reducing carbs drastically, quickly, your medication must be adjusted accordingly or serious hypo’s could occur. You must test, test and keep on testing until carb intake and med adjustment has levelled out."

Click to expand...

i kinda agree douglas, its a good idea to do things with measure, but i do think we should all aim at perfection, then when we don't quite get there, we are still doing pretty well, i think if we go too softly, people that at the start maybe had the fear of god and where therefore prepared to make drastic changes will maybe be less likely to get into the mindset of change once the fear goes away a little and then would maybe settle for the small changes they were told to make, just a thought

douglas99 said:

I had a phone call at home at the weekend from my doctor, who told me to basically stop eating, and stop drinking alcohol. Nicities of what I could eat came later. I wasn't overly high though.

Maybe some dn get set in T1 mode, or maybe they see patient after patient who won't make any drastic changes. Weaning them down from two sugars to one, then a half , and from four donuts to 3 oranges is a start, if it gets your bs down from 20+ to 10 though.

They may also just know what they're doing.

There can be complications from bringing down bs rapidly.

Without knowing the bs at dn, it's hard to know the best route, but slowly is better if in doubt.

To quote a famous low carber. re a low carb diet.

"Warning if you have been holding very high blood glucose numbers, reduce your BG numbers and bring them down slowly over weeks or even months. This diet can reduce BG numbers from the twenties to non diabetic in days for some diabetics. This can cause serious eye damage that cannot be repaired. Remember this is not a race, take a little time to get it right. Also, if you are using powerful medication and a high carb diet, and reducing carbs drastically, quickly, your medication must be adjusted accordingly or serious hypo’s could occur. You must test, test and keep on testing until carb intake and med adjustment has levelled out."

Click to expand...

Sorry douglas99 -- I know we've been here before, but I just do not buy your line that this is all conscious pragmatism and setting of practical goals. Of course it is true that drastic fall in blood sugars can cause problems; of course it is not necessary to rush into a low-carb diet. But that is different from saying that having sugar in your tea and three tangerines a day, and BGs in double figures is fine. WHEN are you going to grasp that the problem is that a heck of a lot of DNs out there are frighteningly ignorant about diabetes? READ some of the posts on this forum describing what people have been told by some HCPs. There may be a case for pragmatism in setting diet targets, but that is not what is happening in most of these cases.

Andy12345 said:

i kinda agree douglas, its a good idea to do things with measure, but i do think we should all aim at perfection, then when we don't quite get there, we are still doing pretty well, i think if we go too softly, people that at the start maybe had the fear of god and where therefore prepared to make drastic changes will maybe be less likely to get into the mindset of change once the fear goes away a little and then would maybe settle for the small changes they were told to make, just a thought

Click to expand...

It works with some people, others need to be weaned down gently.
But either way, cold turkey can be a bad idea, due to the complications that can cause.

The thing to consider here, no disrespect to the op, is
is it a bad dn
or
does the dn have a plan to get the bs down to single figure over several weeks/months, perhaps due to medical reasons.

Either way, slowly will work better than faster.

equipoise said:

Sorry douglas99 -- I know we've been here before, but I just do not buy your line that this is all conscious pragmatism and setting of practical goals. Of course it is true that drastic fall in blood sugars can cause problems; of course it is not necessary to rush into a low-carb diet. But that is different from saying that having sugar in your tea and three tangerines a day, and BGs in double figures is fine. WHEN are you going to grasp that the problem is that a heck of a lot of DNs out there are frighteningly ignorant about diabetes? READ some of the posts on this forum describing what people have been told by some HCPs. There may be a case for pragmatism in setting diet targets, but that is not what is happening in most of these cases.

Click to expand...

You're not reading what I posted.

Pushing down bs in 4 weeks isn't bad, trying to push it down quickly may be.
It's for the op to consider how fast the bs needs to be brought down for the neighbour.

The big question in this thread is what was the bs 4 weeks ago?

douglas99 said:

You're not reading what I posted.

Pushing down bs in 4 weeks isn't bad, trying to push it down quickly may be.
It's for the op to consider how fast the bs needs to be brought down for the neighbour.

Click to expand...

Sorry but I did read what you wrote. Do you seriously believe that most HCPs are aware of the dangers of BGs being brought down too quickly? Some of us are only aware of this because of what happened to a forum stalwart, and the whole point there is that she was NOT warned. I still think your basic problem is that you are still searching around to try to find rationales for poor diabetic advice. What you don't seem to grasp is just how poorly informed many HCPs are. For the hundredth time, why is it that you can't cope with the idea that some people in the NHS give bad advice? I know it's worrying, but that's what reality is sometimes.

cath99 said:

he ids turning 50 in 3 weeks tim has had a knee replacement in 2012 witch has nver healed and due to be reopened in few weeks time, they say it because of his diabeties going un detected 4 so long .. he is due for a hgv medical tomm witch he fears his diabeties will affect it he has 3 young kids and is the only worker in the house and brings home the pay , i guess its why i get frustrated with him when he refuses to help himself and i sit there and watch him drink tea after tea with suger in. thnkyou all for ur advice it does mean alot to me, and i will tke on board all ur advice and go in gently . i be baking round the clock to try to show him that not all foods are out of bounds etc and its working a little. but him telling me j2o orange drink is ok to have sends my blood suger up and i dont drink the rubbish ahahah . patience i guess is needed here

Click to expand...

I'm not having a go at you in this thread, or lc, but as you say, it's been un-diagnosed for years, so slowly getting him down is the aim. Good for you for looking out for him, you're eventually get that tea with no sugar in it!

I attended an Xpert course back in July, there was a large group of newly diagnosed patients from 10 different surgeries. The course leader was from the local PCT specialist diabetes care team and very knowledgable.

While we were comparing the differing bits of advice we had each received from our practice DN's and Doctors it became very clear that the advice given varied widely and basically some of it was totally wrong. The leader said this is not uncommon and was clearly quite frustrated by it. Sadly the specialist team only deals with referred patients and does not handle routine care, they only get involved when things go wrong and even then only until the situation is normalised at which point it goes back to the local practice again.

It became quite apparent to me that the general knowledge relating to diabetes (type 2 in particular) in general practice surgeries is pretty appalling. i consider myself to be very lucky in that at least my surgery does not argue with my approach to managing my condition (unless I see the wrong doctor that is).




Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

douglas99 said:

I'm not having a go at you in this thread, or lc, but as you say, it's been un-diagnosed for years, so slowly getting him down is the aim. Good for you for looking out for him, you're eventually get that tea with no sugar in it!

Click to expand...

The amount of time it takes to get bg's down seems to vary considerably by individual. For example in my case I went from around 250g + of carbs a day all the way down to 30-40g a day overnight and it still took me 6 to 8 weeks for my bgs to stabilise so that they consistently read under 8. Other people I know have done the same thing and got their bgs down into the 4's and 5's within two or three days. It really is another case of why testing is important especially if you are on any insulin stimulating meds (i.e... anything EXCEPT Metformin). Reducing carbs too quickly in those cases can lead to hypos so you need to reduce carbs slowly. On the other hand the quicker you accept you are going to need a serious change in lifestyle and act the better.

Always a fascinating one this one - its a real hot potato!

Having worked with the NHS for around 12 years and educating HCP's across the spectrum I always adopt a humble approach.

I would never tell someone they have been doing their job wrong for the last 10 years (even tho that can often be the case).
If the training is wrong its hardly their fault really.

However, lives are at stake so something has to be done.

I went to see my PN and it was clear to me that she didn't know everything about diabetes (why should she as she is a PN not a DN).

The second time I apologised for going against her advice and buying a meter and strips but since my reading was down from 7.4 to 6% (or 57 to 42) she asked what had I changed and so I just told her I follow what the successful people on the forum are doing.

We touched on low carb and we discovered her son is on low carb and 3 Weetabix a day - I explained that I thought that might be mid thirty grams for carbs. He has since changed his diet. I have a great relationship with her and the best thing about her is that she is confident enough to accept where she is lacking in knowledge and she has my absolute respect for that.

I had to build a relationship up with her but imho telling someone they or a HCP are WRONG will just get their backs up and alienate you. All you can do is guide people and hope they get what I call the 'lightbulb moment.'

I'm new to this game but I've spent hours researching stuff - also sceptical and don't take on individual advice too much but when I see a pattern emerging that works, all from well controlled diabetics on this forum I'm all ears.

Its a process though and can be daunting for many and for me, if it were not for this forum I would be heading for an early grave no doubt about it.

Good luck Cath99, you will get there.